Genuine question for anti-lockdowners

[LucyLocketsPocket]

What do you think the government's motive for lockdown is?

To protect the NHS or something else?

I cant take her seriously because of the David icke shit she shares.

Worst case scenario worry about the NHS situation in 1-2 months using the wrong modelling inputs.

I think the tier system should have been maintained and the projections were too pessimistic. The Zoe study is showing R approaching 1 already, and in London PHE have infections falling in more than half of boroughs.

It's a difficult situation due to lagging data, and if you get it wrong it can go very wrong, but I think they should've waited another couple of weeks and re-analysed the data. It's understandable to be cautious however.

@ILookAtTheFloor

Peer pressure-- other European countries doing it.

Doubling down on previous decisions to not look weak.

Don't want every covid death blamed on them.

One track scientists dripping poison in their ears.

And in Hancock's case, authoritarianism.

I don't think Boris particularly wants to do it for ideology reasons but he's being pressured by the scientists, lockdownistas Labour and hawks in his party like Gove.

All of these.

Plus an element of opportunism by both politicians and scientists, to trial restrictions and see how the public. For some this is a once in a lifetime chance to play god off the back of the pandemic and trial things that would never have been possible before.

The government have been handed a belter by covid. Every single year for many years, the news has been full of pictures of ambulance queues, patients on floors and in corridors and overstretched NHS staff during the winter period and it’s been building to the point of absolute collapse. The population and age expectancy of the UK has grown but the infrastructure, and in particular the country’s health service, has not been invested in so it had the chance to keep up.

This year however, woohoo, they can tell all us citizens that it’s all our fault the hospitals are overflowing and that our selfish actions and desire to see our own family members will mean that more people die and more people will have to wait even longer for the most basic of treatments and care.

It’s utterly disgraceful and at the same time as distracting everyone from their failings they are also causing even more damage to people’s lives, livelihoods and mental health whether they are ill or not.

I agree with a lot of the reasons mentioned by other posters - arse covering, peer pressure, an underfunded NHS.

I also think another major reason is that data has become the religious dogma and poison of our time. Data is the Bible of the present day - lots of potential for good, but huge issues caused by it being incomplete, open to interpretation, used to control and scare people by being twisted to suit whatever agenda a person has.

The data being used in this crisis has been absolutely appalling - I can't state that strongly enough. There models and predictions used are full of massive holes and when data has become available to fill those holes, it hasn't happened, the same fictional data has continued to be used, resulting in nonsense forecasts that never actually come true. Decisions are being based on complete fabrications, things that are entirely made up with such incredibly poor data and reasoning behind them that it is truly unbelievable that people's livelihoods and futures are being affected by them. There is either a total inability or unwillingness or both to comprehensively look at the entire picture, there is a lunatic tunnel vision focus on one single thing, which in other circumstances would come across as extremely worrying and short sighted but in this situation seems to be totally accepted and unquestioned.

People will finally wake up and look back and think 'what the fuck happened there?' - the current effect is almost cult-like with people blindly believing the dogma and taking self-destructive actions that they would never even consider in normal circumstances. People actually genuinely argued there was no issue with children being out of school from March - September. Can you ever imagine that being the case in other circumstances? Fear has damaged people's reasoning and made them focus so narrowly on one threat they can't see any other threats around them. They'll see those threats very very clearly next year when it's too late to do anything about them.

Panic, and driven by the models and charts from Vallance and Whitty which seem to be painting a distorted picture. I'm a bit worried their influence seems to be the over arching one tbh.

There's a pandemic on. We have to be seen to do something. This is something.

I think it is to appease the elderly who are his voters.

Arse covering

Hospitals are NOT overwhelmed

There is an ongoing problem that the vast majority of politicians and media employees gave up science at 14. So they can't adequately challenge any of the data or request some context. In addition both the NHS and the DoH refuse to give information about bed occupancy. Drives me mad.

Agree that this is about underfunding and mismanagement of the nhs over decades. Also the appalling data which is being presented. The current hospital data for example, 11,000 people in hospital with COVID. Yes but how many of those were actually admitted for treatment as a result of the symptoms, how many are hospital aquired and how many are people who have been admitted for some other reason who just happen to have tested positive on admission. Context is everything when interpreting the numbers.

@TheDailyCarbuncle

I agree with a lot of the reasons mentioned by other posters - arse covering, peer pressure, an underfunded NHS.

I also think another major reason is that data has become the religious dogma and poison of our time. Data is the Bible of the present day - lots of potential for good, but huge issues caused by it being incomplete, open to interpretation, used to control and scare people by being twisted to suit whatever agenda a person has.

The data being used in this crisis has been absolutely appalling - I can't state that strongly enough. There models and predictions used are full of massive holes and when data has become available to fill those holes, it hasn't happened, the same fictional data has continued to be used, resulting in nonsense forecasts that never actually come true. Decisions are being based on complete fabrications, things that are entirely made up with such incredibly poor data and reasoning behind them that it is truly unbelievable that people's livelihoods and futures are being affected by them. There is either a total inability or unwillingness or both to comprehensively look at the entire picture, there is a lunatic tunnel vision focus on one single thing, which in other circumstances would come across as extremely worrying and short sighted but in this situation seems to be totally accepted and unquestioned.

People will finally wake up and look back and think 'what the fuck happened there?' - the current effect is almost cult-like with people blindly believing the dogma and taking self-destructive actions that they would never even consider in normal circumstances. People actually genuinely argued there was no issue with children being out of school from March - September. Can you ever imagine that being the case in other circumstances? Fear has damaged people's reasoning and made them focus so narrowly on one threat they can't see any other threats around them. They'll see those threats very very clearly next year when it's too late to do anything about them.

So much this.

I read one of Michael Levite’s books about health, five years ago ish. He actually says “god help us if statisticians and modellers are given more important roles in healthcare”.

The NHS will go after this. It might be around for the least well off but it’s a great way for government to privatise healthcare.

*Levitt

I give up honestly.

Who would even want power at a time of a pandemic

This is real . I know a factory in Europe on standstill as they have 600 out of 2000 either sick or in isolation.

No government would willingly spend so much money on a furlough scheme if they thought there was an alternative.

And the north were moaning about being picked on , even though their cases were higher and now everyone is moaning because we are all in lockdown.

I think Boris wanted to continue with local lockdowns but the advice was that cases were getting too high and he was under pressure from Labour as well . No win situation.

@Remmy123

Go and check that out in the NHS thread and then pop back .

Not All hospitals are overwhelmed I think is the correct response. Yet.

The government's motive for lockdown?

Fear. They are shitting themselves because Covid 19 could well throw their ten years of austerity measures and underfunding into very sharp relief. This would be a vote loser for them.

Fear because they, the Tories who pride themselves on being skinflints, are now just about the highest spending government since the Second World War. They are way out of their comfort zone and feel as though they are living very dangerously. Living by the seat of their pants is not something that comes naturally to the Tories.

The leak of the lockdown plans pushed Johnson into locking us down before he was 100% sure. Apparently he had requested more data from health and the treasury. I agree his is running scared of public opinion but the tiered system might have been given a little longer of the plan hadn't been leaked.

Saving face. They can't admit that the first lockdown was a mistake, and so they have to stick to the narrative that lockdowns are the best way to reduce numbers and if the numbers go up that leaves them with only one option.

Also the public clearly want it

The public don’t want it which is why the MPs got all antsy with Whitty etc.

They were reflecting what they thought the mood was. But when faced with numbers it’s the last thing on a narrow path to go.

Johnson and others would have preferred to avoid it which is why they did tiers so long even when SAGE said do an early circuit breaker.

Is that the same Michael Levitt who has been widely discredited by almost everyone in the scientific community? The one who in March said the virus was almost dead? And in August said it was officially over?

Or one who isn't completely dangerously barmy?

The nhs isn’t underfunded per-say, its just spent on excessive management and other waste, if the money went into healthcare it would be the best in the world.

What happened in Essex the other night (as mentioned in a previous post)

I’m not pro lockdown but to argue that hospitals aren’t overwhelmed is a nonsense. Lots aren’t but a hell of a lot are, or at the absolute limit of what they can cope with.

Not to mention the staff who are utterly broken and stressed beyond measure.

Agree that some areas are indeed very busy. Overwhelmed is an emotional word... Our ICU/HDU have merged into one and extended into 2 neighbouring wards, we are not full yet but struggling to staff beds and working in areas that are not ideal. We have some additional staff from other areas but they are working extra shifts rather than being officially redeployed.Tier 3 area so hopefully the numbers will slow down soon like they did before....

I'm not pro or anti lockdown. I would have preferred to avoid this lockdown by having a competent government and a decently funded health service. We dont have either.

The government has made a complete mess of handling the pandemic. In their attempts to protect the pockets of Tory donors they have comprehensively trashed the economy. Lockdowns are, unfortunately, sometimes necessary but when you need them you have to act decisively. Then they are short and do less damage to the economy than failing to control the virus.

We would have had some economic damage as a result of the virus, this government has made it far, far worse than was necessary.

Oh and the NHS is overwhelmed in places, heading rapidly there in former tier 3 areas - and does far better than better finded health services elsewhere with its limited resources.

Mumsnet has a lot of people posting here who are paid to try and undermine our health service - dont be fooled.