No point of lockdown if schools are open?

[HermioneWeasley]

I accept that the first national lockdown was eventually effective at bringing transmission down (at a terrible cost), but with schools open there’s no point in closing down the rest of society and the economy

Disagree.

The adults are spreading the virus - big gatherings, university students (they are adults although many talk about them as if they are children).

Schools need to stay open and increase ventilation and follow the way that schools that are successfully keeping transmissions low - our 2 local secondaries are doing a great job - the children have been told they must wear masks and do in corridors, and anytime they are not sat down in lessons.

No children are not going to be dumped on again.

@Summerfreeze

Honestly, I think they need to get the nightingale hospitals open because transmission is going to keep going.

They couldn’t staff the nightingale hospitals last time so what’s different? Ventilation is a specialist skill.

Even if they open the nightgales and use them for rehab / non-covid patients, where are they going to get the staff whether patients are ventilated there or not!

The WHO recommend schools stay open BUT with actual mitigation strategies in place; actual distancing, actually wearing masks when indoors, as well as the ventilation.

But they also say that to enable this schools will have to operate on a rota system with some at-home learning.

If this lockdown is actually going to work then strategies like this must be put in place country-wide in secondaries upwards.

Otherwise there's no point to it and we all know it.

They’d have got more benefit from doing it over half-term like everywhere else.

I'm in Ireland and even though we are currently 2 weeks into a 6 week lock down, our schools opened in Sept, however not much else did. We were very restricted. Dublin pubs never opened since last March /April. Country pubs only got to re open for a little over 2 weeks with very strict rules.

Our low numbers this week are from when we were at level 3 (level 5 is lock down). We haven't seen the figures yet for level 5 lock down, that'll be next week. In saying that, our schools have been closed for a week, so kids have been home as nothing is opened. Will get to see it properly probably in 2 weeks time, as we'll be 4 weeks into lock down and kids will be back at school 2 weeks.

We are also hiding figures of cases in schools, this has been proven by parents. I've seen posts on craicnet here saying no cases in schools, but they know kids and teachers who tested positive. Of the 5 schools my kids go to, there's been cases every week. I've received emails from some schools but I also know personally of teachers, snas, and students who have tested positive. But the schools claim they've no cases. Our minister for education just keeps saying we're fine and doing well and no cases in school, I think she's Trump's sister.

There's also cases where children have passed it to parents. There's alot of adults wondering how they are contracting covid when they haven't gone anywhere in months, but their children go to school.

We've never really opened properly since March, only schools really. Anything that did you had rules , masks, queueing, SD. kids have to wear masks all day in school. We've had restrictions on sports, all activities for kids, some never opened. It's been a very long time since we could sit for a few hours in a pub or restaurant, even public transport was down to 50% capacity and now it's 25% capacity, masks are mandatory everywhere.

kids have to wear masks all day in school

Wow-that’s interesting. In fact your whole post was-it sounds like things have been quite different to England. Is that children of all ages wearing masks? During lessons, too? What about teachers?

Are you on glue?

Erm no. All cases that I know of have been isolated cases and its been widely reported that transmission in school is very low.

@Bettina500

Are you on glue?

Erm no. All cases that I know of have been isolated cases and its been widely reported that transmission in school is very low.

If primary and secondary school cases were added together, schools would be top of the list.

@Redlocks30

kids have to wear masks all day in school

Wow-that’s interesting. In fact your whole post was-it sounds like things have been quite different to England. Is that children of all ages wearing masks? During lessons, too? What about teachers?

Primary schools are not compulsory, however alot of parents have put masks on their children about 10-12 years old. Younger ones not so much. All teachers have to wear masks. Some schools have perspex screens on teachers desk.

Secondary schools masks are mandatory unless exempt. Kids wear them when entering school grounds, they only take them off for eating.

Most schools have done away with lockers and each year are restricted to a section of the school, this is to reduce movement in hallways.

Kids sanitise tables when they enter, they have to sanitise entering school and classrooms, lunch is eaten in their main classroom.

This morning on the Matt Frei’s show, they were saying how many young women were now the ones requiring hospitalisation. They aren’t dying but they’re sick enough that they need to go to hospital. These women worked in retail, hospitality and educational settings.

If the government insists on keeping schools open with no safety measures - it is not currently safe considering it’s an airborne disease - Women in educational settings will become ill. Those in hospitality and retail at least have a fighting chance.

I am fuming.

Surely if pupils and staff are only going the school and nowhere else, transmission in schools isn't going to be that high as no one is going to be bringing it in from elsewhere?

Of course there is a point, and that is to reduce the amount of contacts people are having. Education is vital and needs to continue, the fact that children are mixing at school is not reason enough to mix in many other circumstances

@KnightsofColumbusThatHurt

Surely if pupils and staff are only going the school and nowhere else, transmission in schools isn't going to be that high as no one is going to be bringing it in from elsewhere?

But children and staff live with other people-they don’t exist in a vacuum.

Children and staff get public transport to school.
They might live with 4/5 others all of whom work/go to school in different places.
They will be going out to get food.

They need to cut the wages of all teachers if schools close.

@onedayinthefuture

They need to cut the wages of all teachers if schools close.

As teachers would be providing key worker care and remote learning, that will never happen.

Well, DS sat next to the child who went on the close his bubble on the day the other child's symptoms started and he remained well with no symptoms, so I think we are happy to take our chances and have the DC go to school.
There is a trade off with mental health hear and DS' was atrocious by the time he was able to go into a keyworker bubble.

It’s reasonable to close pubs/non essential shops first imo and reassess.

@Rabbitholebonkers

Schools will be the last to close much to the disappointment of many mumsnetters. Ireland and Scotland are seeing reductions with schools open so I absolutely don’t agree with you.

I don't agree either. Education and the mental health of our young (and yes I know they don't all like school and some are bullied and probably had a much better time during lockdown) come before covid. I know if you don't put covid above everything else that makes you "selfish". So be it.

And Germany and France are keeping schools open and Belgium to a large extent.

Equally as pointless - perhaps more so, to keep the borders open.

As Professor Devi Sridhar (one if the scientific advisers to the Scottish government) says (my bold):

Oh - to be an island in 2020.

And

On 22 June- given we had largely crushed the curve- we could have maintained this through expanded testing & tracing and strict checks for re-importation of cases. That was the time to push numbers low & have a strategy of how to maintain them.

I absolutely agree, no point in a lockdown without the schools shut. Yes, we may cause a dent in the virus numbers but it took from March to July last time, and that was with schools shut....and even longer with schools open.

But I also understand that closing schools causes all sorts of problems, for children, parents and education. Are we doing another "drag it out until the next longer school holiday" like last time?

Move the school holidays. Have a 6 week break over the winter, and a 2 week one in the summer. Move the exams to the autumn. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Prof Sridhar explains it here:

Two approaches: either keeping borders largely open like the UK, but adopting harsh domestic restrictions to try to combat community transmission; or having very tight border controls, like Taiwan and New Zealand, but few restrictions on everyday life.

Wrt schools. It's better to have them closed for a short period like a month (except for keyworker and vulnerable children) to nip things in the bud.

Alternative is risk them closing for longer (or at least ongoing severe disruption) as the spread continues and more and more teachers and other school staff end up off sick (Covid, Long Covid, or stress).

But children and staff live with other people-they don’t exist in a vacuum.

Children and staff get public transport to school.
They might live with 4/5 others all of whom work/go to school in different places.
They will be going out to get food.

But in a lockdown everyone will still be going to far less places than not in a lockdown, so there is still a lot less chance of bringing the virus into school in the first place. So it's not 'pointless' to keep schools open, and it has to be balanced against to massive negatives of closing schools again.

I agree with you Knights - except that it's going to take a while for virus levels in the community to come down. And until they do a lot more children and school staff are going to be infected. The sensible plan would have been to close schools for two weeks (including half-term) in order to to cut the chain of transmission and start lockdown at the same time. Schools back after two weeks of lockdown when hopefully a lot less kids will be infected.

Unfortunately this government doesn't do sensible. Or plans. It just reacts out of panic when the sh*t hits the fan.

'They need to cut the wages of all teachers if schools close'
Wow. Because we all sat on our backsides doing nothing last time, didn't we? The only tine schools closed this year was during the summer holidays. Even then, SLT were in school trying to make it ' Covid secure,' which we all know does not exist.