Schools MUST stay open.

[motherrunner]

I hear this a lot on MN.

Schools maybe ‘open’ but they’re not really depending on where you live.

I’m in Tier 2, due to go into Tier 3 next week prior to the lockdown rules.

Since Sept Yr 10 have isolated twice (4 weeks out of a 8 week half term), Yr 12 and 13 three times (6 weeks of a 8 week half term). My own DS is isolating due to being in contact with a positive until next week and I am isolating until next week as one of my pupils tested positive (and before anyone asks why I wasn’t 2m away well let’s just say, that’s school life).

Before lockdown in March my school had to close just to the numbers of staff off, at one point admin staff were supervising classes.

This morning I read a comment from a poster on the ‘lockdown my thread that teachers just have to ‘hope’ they get a mild viral load. Have we become so disillusioned with this virus that because “schools must stay open” then we minimise they health of school staff?

I am happy to be back teaching my pupils, I’m not happy that I feel unsafe. I am not happy that other workplaces have ‘Covid secure’ measures but I have sanitiser and a ‘hope for the best’ attitude.

So, if you really want schools to stay open then please email your MP and voice concerns about safety and hopefully we can stay open in a meaningful way because there’s a difference between ‘schools open’ with us delivering a quality education and ‘schools open’ with a body providing childcare.

This is from an interview with Prof Semple from Sage this morning.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/31/covid-running-riot-in-england-as-lockdown-looms-scientist-says

He said there were “many more cases, particularly in younger females between the ages of 20 and 40”, with three to four times as many women in that age group going to hospital as men, because they were being exposed to the virus in hospitality, retail and some educational settings.

Soooo, it's because they are catching it in those places. Not because, you know, they're MUMS.

@noblegiraffe teachers at my DCs secondary school wear masks and visors if they choose to (some are). Sounds like it's an internal matter not up to government advice.

they are in all of Europe

I wish people would fact check before they spout rubbish.

I just remember people saying: It can't be spreading asymptomatically in Primary schools, because if it was, we'd see an uptick in cases in their mother's age group.

I know it's easy to forget these things, just like we seem to have forgotten the 5 covid levels that came before the 3 tier system but at the start of this term the government put in place a 4 tier system for schools. 1 being all schools open as normal, 2 primary schools open, secondaries on a rota (vulnerable and key worker children allowed full time) there was a very slight nuance between 3 and 4 which I can't adequately explain but they essentially close schools. I would expect that we will at least move to the second.

I cant see the point of a lockdown without schools closing.

Schools are spreading it where I am. A lockdown without them is utterly pointless.

www.google.com/amp/s/schoolsweek.co.uk/new-local-lockdowns-guidance-what-schools-need-to-know/amp/

@Ghislainedefeligonde,
"callme teachers have masks and don’t have to touch anyone." You WHAT? Please don't spout such nonsense. If you have ever been in a primary classroom you might realise what a ridiculous statement that is.
"NHS has masks plus a wee plastic pinny and gloves because we are touching / examining patients and need to be closer than 2m to do this." As do teachers of young children, a surprising number of which are not reliably toilet-trained and, even if they are, still have accidents. Oh, and throw up. And cough and sneeze without covering their mouths.
"Teachers don’t need more than masks surely if they stick to the rules" But we can't stick to the rules, as classroom sizes and layout, plus poor ventilation (windows that are painted shut or only open a couple of inches) don't permit it.

"Supermarket workers have huge numbers of contacts compared to teachers so your point there is not really valid." Yes, my point IS valid, as secondary teachers mix with hundreds and hundreds of children for lengthy periods of time (up to an hour at a time in a small, poorly-ventilated space) where none of those students are wearing masks (unlike shoppers, who are required to).

@Ghislainedefeligonde

callme teachers have masks and don’t have to touch anyone. NHS has masks plus a wee plastic pinny and gloves because we are touching / examining patients and need to be closer than 2m to do this. Teachers don’t need more than masks surely if they stick to the rules and in Scotland teachers are wearing masks if they want to/ plus in corridors etc alongside pupils

Supermarket workers have huge numbers of contacts compared to teachers so your point there is not really valid

It’s not a race to the bottom! Yes supermarket staff may have a lot of contacts but it’s brief, often from behind a screen with everyone wearing masks and SD so it wouldn’t be counted as a close contact. Loads of teachers are in classrooms where they can’t maintain a SD of 2m, with 30+ kids for hours. Meaning they would then be classed as a close contact.

@Willyoujustbequiet

I cant see the point of a lockdown without schools closing.

Schools are spreading it where I am. A lockdown without them is utterly pointless.

So every single covid case in your area has come from school? There's no chance at all it could have come from anywhere else? I find that hard to believe. No one is disputing the transmission in school but it certainly doesn't account for it all

callme teachers have masks and don’t have to touch anyone.
Why are you stating this as fact, when it is not true, Ghislainedefeligonde ?

NHS has masks plus a wee plastic pinny and gloves because we are touching / examining patients and need to be closer than 2m to do this.
So, if teachers were also provided this by the government to try to reduce some of their risk (and not have to pay for this out of their own pockets, as posters on other threads have said they should do), why would you argue against it? Especially if it keeps more schools open more fully to more pupils?

Teachers don’t need more than masks surely if they stick to the rules
Well, masks full stop would be very welcomed and yes, teachers could stick to the “rules” of course they could but could you say the same for the pupils? What happens when they break the “rules”?

and in Scotland teachers are wearing masks if they want to/ plus in corridors etc alongside pupils
So you admit not all teachers have masks, yet your first line...

Supermarket workers have huge numbers of contacts compared to teachers so your point there is not really valid
Huge numbers of contacts? How many supermarket workers do you know, who’s customers are touching them? They still have access to more PPE than teachers do.

What I don’t understand from viewpoints like these is why are posters, wanting schools to stay open (as teachers do too) also being so vocal about not giving schools what they need to help them stay open to more and more? Why is it so controversial for teachers to request some PPE in their workplace? The mind boggles.

I think many parents are so entitled regarding schools. Let’s be frank, it’s nothing to do with their child’s education and everything to do with free childcare. One thing that struck me about the last lockdown was how many parents didn’t seem to enjoy spending time with their kids. Harsh I know, but true.

No one wants to see schools fully closed, but there needs to be a better system in place to protect staff and pupils.

callme when my 6 yr old dd got kicked in the mouth by another pupil the other week no staff would give her a hug despite her being hugely upset...so some teachers seem to be able to avoid touching pupils even if they really need it
I’m in Scotland and teachers are allowed to wear masks. I’m basing my statement on the situation here. Just because it’s not the same where you are doesn’t mean it’s not the case here.
And I still think supermarket workers have a greater number of contacts through their work. Some teachers in bigger schools might see hundreds of pupils in a week, but not then hundreds of different pupils the next week whereas many people in public facing jobs such as shops will see hundreds of different people every single day.

"No one is disputing the transmission in school but it certainly doesn't account for it all"
Where has anyone suggested that it does?

@CallmeAngelina

"No one is disputing the transmission in school but it certainly doesn't account for it all" Where has anyone suggested that it does?

PP claim of schools are spreading it where I am

OK, so , parents who wnat schools open need to see it as a social responsibility to egt atest, even with the mildest symptoms.

I ahve taught so many kids who ahve taken 4-7 days off with a 'heavy cold' and then reappeared , very indignant , almost angry at any suggestion that they should possibly have got tested. They then cough and splutter everywhere for at least another week - I teach years 9 - 13 so I am sure a lot of this is rooted in panic about missing school.. Sure, these could be colds : but they don't know. The government is insisting on sticking to three symptoms, seen mainly in adults. A teacher I work with has just tested positive with a runny nose, aches and pains and a headache...

Meanwhile I have two EVC students who ahve not appeared back at school since lockdown, because they feel so unsafe. And we have ECV and CV staff is schools being given no choice. Anyone who ahs seen the recent aerosol transmission infographic doing the rounds knows the 2m rule is pretty much academic in a classroom.

The problem is the government, when panicking about test capacity peddled the message that avoiding tests was proper British thriftiness.

Please please please get tests, get tests for your children.

@Ghislainedefeligonde have you been in a school recently?
All my NHS friends are appalled at how unsafe my working conditions are compared to theirs. As is my GP and my consultant. Not least because they have got all their ECV staff and as many CV as possible working in non-clinical areas with limited contacts, from home if possible and were shocked that we are being thrown into schools that do not have to follow even the covid-safe guidelines to protect low risk workers.
Whereas I am ECV, have no PPE, teach 6 classes of 30+ fully grown teens including 18 year olds for an hour at a time in a cramped unventilated classroom with no space for social distancing. It's '2m where possible' but it just isn't possible unless our classrooms get magically bigger. We don't isolate contacts properly, just those sitting next to the infected pupil, we have no budget for extra cleaning so we're using water in spray bottles. No plastic screens to teach behind like retail workers have. Our pupils don't wear masks in the classroom because the government says they shouldn't and they 'know their rights'. They also don't even try to social distance and I can't do anything about it except put them in detention so I can spend even longer in a cramped unventilated room with them.
But sure, TONS of ECV people in other sectors are in that position right?

What I notice on these threads is teachers, the troops on the ground , post about the realities of what it it actually like : and then are told they are wrong.

@Rhine

I think many parents are so entitled regarding schools. Let’s be frank, it’s nothing to do with their child’s education and everything to do with free childcare. One thing that struck me about the last lockdown was how many parents didn’t seem to enjoy spending time with their kids. Harsh I know, but true.

No one wants to see schools fully closed, but there needs to be a better system in place to protect staff and pupils.

It was like an extension of the moaning that occurs when it’s the summer hols and they have to look after the children for six weeks. Never understood having children if you’re going to moan about parenting them or having to financially support them.

@Ghislainedefeligonde,* I don't see the relevance of whether this is Scotland or England.
Your point about hundreds of pupils in a week vs shops makes no sense so I won't respond to that.
I can't explain why adults around your child didn't hug her - who told you this? The staff? Or your daughter? And do you know that they would have hugged her in similar circumstances, even without Covid? And you mentioned that if teachers followed the rules about close contact, then there shouldn't be an issue. And then complained about that rule-following in your daughter's case?
Also, I wasn't talking about hugging - I was talking about dealing with toilet accidents in an early years setting.

@Rhine

I think many parents are so entitled regarding schools. Let’s be frank, it’s nothing to do with their child’s education and everything to do with free childcare. One thing that struck me about the last lockdown was how many parents didn’t seem to enjoy spending time with their kids. Harsh I know, but true.

No one wants to see schools fully closed, but there needs to be a better system in place to protect staff and pupils.

Oh what a puzzle parents didn’t enjoy it, when lockdown was such a fun time for families! All those lovely moments of sitting on stressful conference calls wrestling a yelling toddler, muting the mic to yell “mummy’s WORKING, please please just wait thirty minutes” at the tantruming older DC, ah what quality time. #makingmemories

chloe
I never said teachers shouldn’t have PPE. I have no idea where you got that from.
But I don’t see a real reason for them needing more than masks and access to soap and water unless they happen to be cleaning up vomit or other bodily fluids. And how is saying teachers have a choice about wearing a mask (at my kids schools) the same as saying they don’t have masks ??

And I really don’t get why teachers are apparently always touching kids yet my daughter was left to cry for half an hour without even a hug...doesn’t make sense.

Clearly if you are in close contact eg kid has been sick or having to help them after an accident then PPE is sensible, but surely this would be happening anyway. I know at our local special needs school where many kids are in nappies the staff have aprons and gloves etc

IceCreamandCandyFloss I totally agree. It’s almost like some people just can’t be bothered with their kids, isn’t it?

@SchrodingersUnicorn I am so sorry you are in this position. I worry too and, although in my 40s, am fit.

One of my closest friends is a nurse. She is also angry about the conditions teachers are exposed to. She wears full PPE when treating patients and her clinic is on reduced numbers. I speak to my GP each month - by telephone consult - and she too acknowledges she is in a safer position than I am.

@Piggywaspushed So true. We try to explain the realities but it’s interpreted as dramatising, hyperbole or even if the risks are acknowledged, they’re minimised.

Once again, I do not want schools closed. I want to be safe, I want my students to be safe and I also want their to be parity when it comes to education as in my area exam groups are suffering.

Someone mentioned that teachers would not be at risk or need PPE if they "stuck to the rules".

If I'd "stuck to the rules" in my classroom last week, I'd have had to stand idly by while allowing three boys to punch the living daylights out of each other. I didn't. I broke the rules.

I want schools open, but I'd also really like for uninformed people to refrain from blaming teachers for the impossibility of social distancing in schools.