Should we all have bubbles?

[Racoonworld]

I’ve been reading a lot of these threads and it seems that everyone feels they should have a bubble of some kind, support bubble, childcare bubble (using for childcare not just childcare), bubble because of mental health, bubble because they are just seeing those people, bubble because kids are together at school. I know some of these are allowed but others aren’t and are doing it anyway. I’m including myself in this too, no ‘bubble’ but we see in-laws without social distancing because I have a new baby and I want them to be able to see and bond with the baby occasionally. So if the majority have formed a bubble anyway wouldn’t it be easier if everyone was allowed one bubble? Wood more people stick to it then? I know I would.

Using for socialising not just childcare*

I’m not sure about bubbles but I think there ought to have been some allowance for, for example, kids in the same classes seeing one another out of school. I appreciate this can seem minor but if you’re the parent of a young child facing six months in a sodden park...

See this is my point, everyone thinks they should have a special allowance for their situation. Being honest, I don’t care about your kid being allowed play dates but I do care about my baby seeing family. But in reality neither situation is more important than the other and each is important to us. So if everyone was allowed a bubble it would solve this?

You could pick a family to have play dates with and we could see our in-laws. Everyone gets one exemption to social distancing, fair for everyone.

How would that work in practice though? The more bubbles and reasons for bubbles, the increasing likelihood people want to be in multiple ones and bubbling becomes just living your life with your usual circle of friends and family!

I think everyone wants a bubnle to facilitate scoial contacts, childcare etc but not everyone wants to take the other consequences of s bubble, i.e. self isolating when anyone in the bubble gets symptoms, even if they're not your household.

What if I'm your exemption though, but you're not mine, and how would anyone 'police' this?

It's an interesting point, and at this point, with such 'lockdown' fatigue alongside very real struggles, I'd be interested to see the actual expectation around adherence to T2 & 3 measures.

Behaviourally, it is much more likely that people would comply, if there was some kind of nod towards the need for some/minimal social contact. We all know this, from dieting, to raising children. No choice/autonomy at all is not sustainable and people are more likely to think 'sod the rules' and fall off the wagon completely. Some limited choice seems like it would be more likely to have more people fall in line, because it would feel reasonable and sustainable.

In this case, I don't think seeing people outdoors, in winter, really counts as choice, especially when we're talking about families visiting older relatives or those that live further away etc. and sitting outside in freezing temperature and rain isn't really appropriate.

I know, yes of course, 'we're in the middle of a pandemic' etc. etc. and I don't minimise that, but there's every chance the overall result might be better with slightly relaxed rules on bubbles, and much higher compliance.

The issue I guess is one of enforceability. So you see your in-laws but PIL decides he can also see John down the pub, who went to visit X in a care home etc etc. I understand why non-economic activity has been thrown under a bus. Doesn’t make me any less sad about it though.

But what if the people you want to bubble with want to form a bubble with someone else? I m not bothered personally but my kids would like to bubble with their best friends. But then that’s two bubbles so how do we choose? Also their parents probably have other friends or family members they would prefer to form a bubble with over us? I can’t see it working in practice. I don’t see the harm in you forming a bubble with your in laws though, do your own risk assessment. I despise the word bubble as well and all the bloody variations of it (bubbling, bubbled etc) it gives me the rage.

I think people wouldn't be happy with just the one bubble.
Taking your example of your ILs seeing baby - what about your parents? What about if your baby had a sibling with a different Dad and his parents might want to see their grandchild? What if your ILs were divorced - which one would get to see baby? What if your baby had a childminder - would baby see your ILs?

The idea would be that the usual rules apply but everyone would be allowed on exemption. So you would still be able to meet a friend at a pub (in T1) but have one actual exemption where your allowed to see another household properly. So no switching bubbles, no multiple bubbles, everyone agrees to that bubble. Really easy, clear cut, no room for arguments or ambiguity. Some would pick the current support bubble, some a bubble for childcare, others another family to socialise with.

@TicTacTwo

I think people wouldn't be happy with just the one bubble. Taking your example of your ILs seeing baby - what about your parents? What about if your baby had a sibling with a different Dad and his parents might want to see their grandchild? What if your ILs were divorced - which one would get to see baby? What if your baby had a childminder - would baby see your ILs?

Well at the moment none of that is allowed without social distancing anyway so being able to properly see one part of my family would be better than the current situation. Yes it’s not perfect but surely better than nothing? Although I agree some people would never be happy and always want more.

The permitted bubbles each have a rationale behind them. What is the rationale behind everyone doing it?

"It's more fair" is not a valid rationale. What was unfair was leaving single people entirely alone for months, parents having to manage working whilst looking after a child at home.

@Coasterfan

But what if the people you want to bubble with want to form a bubble with someone else? I m not bothered personally but my kids would like to bubble with their best friends. But then that’s two bubbles so how do we choose? Also their parents probably have other friends or family members they would prefer to form a bubble with over us? I can’t see it working in practice. I don’t see the harm in you forming a bubble with your in laws though, do your own risk assessment. I despise the word bubble as well and all the bloody variations of it (bubbling, bubbled etc) it gives me the rage.

Yes it would be tricky in your situation to agree on one. I was just thinking that there would be more compliance and people would be happier with one exemption each. We are already in effect bubbles with my in laws as they are the only people we are seeing with no social distancing, but it would be nice if that were officially allowed.

Really easy, clear cut, no room for arguments or ambiguity.

It's only clear cut if you have a very simple life. Once you've got multiple layers of contacts, you'll find various people claiming others as their bubble, hence arguments and resentment. That's the last thing people need at the moment.

But what about situations where the parents have more than one child and grandchildren?

I know that DH's parents would pick his brother and the 'golden grandchildren' which would cause a massive amount of resentment well more than usual from us.

@ChaChaCha2012

The permitted bubbles each have a rationale behind them. What is the rationale behind everyone doing it?

"It's more fair" is not a valid rationale. What was unfair was leaving single people entirely alone for months, parents having to manage working whilst looking after a child at home.

My point is that although the current officially allowed bubbles all have valid reasons behind them, there are many reasons why others want them too which are equally valid. And people are stretching those too, socialising within their childcare bubble rather than just using for childcare. I don’t qualify for a support bubble or childcare bubble, but I recently had my first baby and am struggling with the isolation around that and having no one who can help out. To me that reason is just as valid and so we are seeing in-laws.

@ChaChaCha2012i meant clear cut as in no one could find a loop hole or argue that it wasn’t clear. Yes there will always be people who want more bubbles (I would love more so we could see my family and friends) but no one could argue that one is unclear.

My point is that although the current officially allowed bubbles all have valid reasons behind them, there are many reasons why others want them too which are equally valid.

No, your reason is not equally valid to a single person having no one. You have a husband who can help out. If he's not, then tell him to step up or become a single parent and you can have a bubble.

This is all about you trying to justify breaking the law.

@ChaChaCha2012 see that’s your view but I don’t agree actually. If I was a single person in a tier 1 area, and was going to work, I would have adult interaction every day, be able to see friends at restaurants and pubs, see my family. I’m not at work (baby is very young), my husband is working all week, none of my family are close by to see for a few hours. I’m isolated during the week. I’m not saying single people shouldn’t get a support bubble, I think it’s really important. But I think everyone should get one as it’s also important for others to get some proper interaction. And as people are already stretching or breaking the rules for this it seems like most people would like one!

I think that the mixing of households and "rule of 6" should not apply to those of us who have lost a close family member (and, in my case about to lose another). We lost Mum in the first week of lockdown and were expected to not mix after her funeral. We are soon to lose dad and, again, we may not be allowed to be together if we move up a tier. It should be a given that a grieving family counts as a bubble, denying them the right to be with each other at a time when they need each other most is the cruellest thing. The "grieving bubble" is one that would not be confusing and quite frankly will, I believe be the one "excuse" nobody would want to capitalise on and it's the easiest one to prove.

@trappedsincesundaymorn sorry about your mum and dad, that’s so hard in lockdown. Yes I absolutely agree you should be allowed a bubble for those reasons. It’s cruel and unfair that you aren’t and I wouldn’t blame you for forming one anyway. It just proves what I’m saying that there are so many reasons that people need a bubble which aren’t considered at the moment.

We also lost a family member at the beginning of lockdown. I couldn’t go to the funeral (was pregnant and vulnerable) and we still haven’t been able to get together To celebrate his life because of the rules. So awful for everyone going through this.

Thankyou. for you for your loss.