Now we know why the govt were suppressing the schools infection data

[noblegiraffe]

...because for secondary it’s very worrying.

They choose to release it the day before we break up for half term, too late for any circuit breaker like the other U.K. countries.

They’ve quietly removed the assertion that schools aren’t high risk settings from the guidance. At what point are they going to start to be honest about the risks, particularly in sixth forms and colleges?

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/928749/Weekly_COVID-19_and_Influenza_Surveillance_Graphs_W43_FINAL.pdf

Is 'hearing' a lesson an effective replacement? How is a teacher meant to simultaneously teach a class and answer questions in chat? I think some people think we are superhuman.

I had 15 year 11s missing form one class last week. How would I ahve taught the other 12 and manned chat , whilst simultaneously projecting for the class a ppt on my laptop? I suppose non teachers think that is easy. But you are asking teachers to completely replan and rejig entire lessons, and often teaching methodologies with no extra equipment and shonky wifi.

If a whole class goes, or I am at home, fine. Half a class : nightmare.

Anyway, as usual, an interesting OP about data gets hijacked into a them vs us situation.

Live lessons are not a magic bullet, but as a DP of a teen, they feel like an excellent compromise if face to face learning cannot continue or the child is isolated. Far better than a few powerpoint slides which a disinterested student is meant to wade through themselves- in reality in our case requiring parental ( mostly me) input to get through the topic.

I understand there are valid concerns about online live learning, but the vast majority of parents have no time to scrutinise as they're busy trying to do their own job which as a wfh person has involved many unpleasant time consuming changes to what I did in order to adapt.

I don’t know if they will want to shut schools again, however blended learning isn’t impossible, and less time in school is doable for older age groups. In secondary school there is a lot of ‘filler’ time that isn’t that useful half the time. In response to the person saying that their child with ADHD couldn’t cope with at home learning, but they struggle with long boring school days sat at a desk too don’t they? Well my older child does with ADHD. Blended learning would be better education for him than the traditional model.

Daily mail states that a study by Edinburgh university says that closing schools reduces the r number by 15% it is the second most effective way of reducing the r number (after stopping public events which reduces it by 24%)

Is it this study? It’s quite interesting. It states

790 phases from 131 countries were included in the analysis. A decreasing trend over time in the R ratio was found following the introduction of school closure, workplace closure, public events ban, requirements to stay at home, and internal movement limits; the reduction in R ranged from 3% to 24% on day 28 following the introduction

www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30785-4/fulltext

Yes that’s the one

Some definitive information that closing schools really does help reduce the R number

The other reason it maybe difficult for teachers or go live. Let’s say they have a child with attachment concerns. That child may, for example always be stood up, walking around, trying to cling to the teacher. Let’s say that child is in the care of the LA and cannot under any circumstances appear on camera for safeguarding concerns.

Outside of the MN bubble, there are an awful lot of children out there who cannot be on a live class stream for very real safeguarding concerns. If a teacher has a child like that in their class, no way will they risk it.

The graphs are actually very interesting. In general the bigger the ‘curve’ up or down, the greater the effect. And it looked at both effects on suppression of cases at lockdown, and effects of ‘pinging back’ of cases after it is lifted... really worth taking a look at these...

So you can see that schools had a greater effect than many other restrictions on suppressing cases, and pretty big rise in cases after lockdown lifted too...

Gosh feeling like if we don’t seriously tackle schools, whatever ‘tackle’ might be - blended learning, less classes, more masks, we will be stuck in repeated lockdowns that do not have half the effect?

@NeurotrashWarrior absolutely agree, blended learning for the areas struggling. Any school days are better than none imo. I’m very grateful for the weeks we have had.

First positive case in our school confirmed on Monday (symptoms started, and off school, last Thursday apparently) Last night, so one week after first reported symptoms, emails to say enough further positive cases that both DDs year groups, Yr 12 and 13 are now shut down for two weeks (one of which is half term). So the whole sixth form. Doubt it’ll be the last time. Still at least A levels are put back 3 weeks, so all good

@Piggywaspushed

Is 'hearing' a lesson an effective replacement? How is a teacher meant to simultaneously teach a class and answer questions in chat? I think some people think we are superhuman.

I had 15 year 11s missing form one class last week. How would I ahve taught the other 12 and manned chat , whilst simultaneously projecting for the class a ppt on my laptop? I suppose non teachers think that is easy. But you are asking teachers to completely replan and rejig entire lessons, and often teaching methodologies with no extra equipment and shonky wifi.

If a whole class goes, or I am at home, fine. Half a class : nightmare.

Anyway, as usual, an interesting OP about data gets hijacked into a them vs us situation.

Gosh yes. I deliver work-based training and delivered a course to 16 very enthusiastic adults all with their own devices, 6 in the room and 10 on Zoom.

Nightmare. Not a great learning experience for anyone.

Double the numbers, have fidgety children who only want to message their mates or post Gifs in chat, half who are on a phone as they don't have access to a laptop and that would count as 'teaching' in the general view of MNers.

Madness.

This half term, DD1 had lots of driving lessons lined up and a much needed contact lens eye test booked, boo, but on the plus side we’ve just realised we can kill two birds with one stone and she can drive to Barnard Castle thus getting valuable practical driving experience AND test her eyesight, hurrah!

@Janevaljane

At my dds school you can sign into remote learning if you have to self isolate. So dd can hear the lesson and camera is switched on to demonstrate things if that is necessary. She can ask questions in the chat window. It's not as good as being there but it isn't bad. It's an independent school though so I'm expecting this idea to be dismissed out of hand 😏

I don't know if the govt even got as far as considering ideas like this before dismissing them out of hand Janevaljane.

This is exactly what my ds's 'worst school in the borough, don't send your child there' is doing though. Lending laptops to those who don't have them. Doesn't help those without Broadband at home but, as we all know, the idea of a free, high speed national Broadband accessible to all is Commie nonsense.

Why are live lessons better than pre-recorded plus live Q&A? This would be more effective because you could pool resources - eg bbc could do a pre-recorded video and put a lot into production and this could be used by multiple schools. Then teachers could answer kids’ specific questions or give alternative explanations live in follow up sessions?

@Namenic that's a reasonable compromise- provided there are live Q&A sessions afterwards. I would say though as an adult if I attend an online training session I find the live ones a lot more engaging even if the same topic is covered. There's something about being there at the same time that makes it more immediate and makes me less likely to have a cup of tea or start mumsnetting at the same time .

But is the infection rate in schools higher or lower than in the overall population?

There's an interesting article on the BBC this morning that I think Ecosse and others should read.
There is evidence that Covid produces lasting changes in the lungs.
I think letting this virus run unchecked (or worse - practically encouraging it) through our young people, would be criminally exposing them to potential long term harm. Just like previous scandals - BSE, hiv in blood etc.
We have no idea of the long term effects. Trying to encourage most of our young people to catch it could have disastrous consequences for the future.
Remember every risk assessment should have both the severity of consequences as well as the likelihood considered.
BBC News - Covid: Why is coronavirus so deadly?
www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54648684

@sunflowers246

But is the infection rate in schools higher or lower than in the overall population?

Who knows without mass testing - especially as the younger you are the more likely you are to be asymptomatic.

The government have tried to open schools on the cheap by pretending that the virus wouldn’t spread there, against a background of repeated underfunding so that relatively simple measures (ventilation, distancing) can’t be effectively implemented. Some parents haven’t helped either. Lots of shouting beforehand that they would do anything as long as schools could reopen, but when push comes to shove they aren’t actually prepared to do anything. I hear repeatedly that “it’s ok for X children to play together at weekends because they’re together in school”, “it’s ok for large groups of X teenagers to walk home from school with no social distancing whatsoever because they’re together in class”, “it’s ok for parents to collect their children from school standing shoulder to shoulder because the children mix together in class so what difference does it make”, “no way is my child wearing a mask”. They don’t seem to understand that every interaction counts, so we should concentrate on facilitating the interactions that need to happen (children being taught by teachers in a safe environment) and dial back on the “nice to do” ones. How on earth do people think children boomeranging in and out of school due to isolating are getting a proper education?

@sunflowers246

But is the infection rate in schools higher or lower than in the overall population?

Higher, Y7-11 infection rate is second highest in the country behind Y12-age 24 according to ONS random sampling.

As a teacher, it is really hard when kids are off for 2 weeks - the rest of the class has moved on, the isolating or "ill" students generally never engage with the work sent home, and so need catching up. That is hard when you are not allowed within 2m.
At one point I was essentially teaching 4 different lessons in one year 10 class - all from the front due to the 2m thing.
The yo yoing is disruptive to all the students not just the one off

@Piggywaspushed

Is 'hearing' a lesson an effective replacement? How is a teacher meant to simultaneously teach a class and answer questions in chat? I think some people think we are superhuman.I had 15 year 11s missing form one class last week. How would I ahve taught the other 12 and manned chat , whilst simultaneously projecting for the class a ppt on my laptop

I am a private school teacher so all this is second nature now. Hearing is not effective for all students, I agree. Boys seem to disengage more quickly than girls. But it is better than nothing. Webcams help - you can blur your background which helps with protecting teachers and their families. In terms of answering questions in chat, it is just like the classroom: they can put their hands up, but you don’t need to respond until you are ready. It is not difficult to establish protocols about what to do and when (although I appreciate behaviour in state and private is different). Teams will sort out the projecting the PowerPoint and chat issue simultaneously, as will Skype for business. But it is clumsy and less than perfect when trying to respond to everyone’s needs when some are in front of you and others are at home. Teams is a useful platform in that you can put up worksheets they will need before a lesson, or anything else, and they can take responsibility for downloading and being ready. Parents are listening - if you mention responsibility and being prepared, it seems to prompt parents to remind them next time ‘Miss Enough loads up the worksheets, download them now’.

Of course, none of this overcomes the lack of technology for some children plus availability of a reliable internet connection. And that’s pretty much impossible to overcome. But in terms of teaching online and in the classroom, it is possible and you just adapt as you go along. I think the thinking about it is far worse than the doing it.

My DH is a private school maths teacher. he just cannot do this type of thing. They ahve all the money to invest tin the tech : but none of the training skills or ability to pass on huge step changes in teaching to a 50 year old who writes on a whiteboard and can't use a computer.

He doesn't have worksheets to up or download!