Not allowed to self isolate unless told to do so by test and trace??

[Bjollocks]

Is this for real? I honestly didn't realise. How messed up is this??

I think personal responsibility has to come in here. An employer cannot prevent someone from self-isolating if that person feels they have a responsibility to do so. (The employer may not pay the person or threaten them with disciplinary action if they don't work but that's not quite the same thing.)

If someone is willingly playing contact sports in a pandemic (which may well be within the guidelines -assuming the contact doesn't last for long spells?) then they are placing themselves at a higher risk of this happening to them. If they don't work for a responsible or flexible employer, they should take this into account when they decide whether to continue with the sport or whether to mitigate their risk of having to self-isolate.

OP I think you need to calm down. You are getting very angry about third hand information. Perhaps your 'relative' wasn't in close contact for 15mins or more with this person? Perhaps they haven't told their employer as they realise they were taking risks by participating in the sport?

If they were not named as a contact for t&t it seems unlikely SI is necessary. I was in contact last week with 2 colleagues who later tested positive, however I was popping in and out of the room and not going too close so don't need to isolate. If people are being careful, SI often won't be necessary. I wouldn't have thought you would have prolonged close contact with the one individual, even in a contact sport? Surely you are running all round the place. I honestly think you need to calm down.

@Bjollocks

That is just not true.
If you know you have been in close contact with a positive case, then you need to isolate. If you have symptoms, you need to isolate until you get a negative test, if you live with someone with symptoms then you need to isolate until they get a negative test.

Employers might be telling people to come in because the police cant act unless you've been contacted by track and trace, but that doesnt mean you should ignore the guidelines on when to isolate.

Missandra read your link all the way down.

It just says continue to follow social distancing.

The employer is going by this guidance to the letter. Employer would not allow time off.

It's a martial art, so prolonged contact. No running.

I'm not angry!! Just amazed that the employer would not allow self isolation. They obviously were in close contact as he has caught covid from him!

Do you honestly feel your contact was significant? You could literally be anywhere and come into some contact with a positive person. You will spend the rest of the year isolating otherwise! It’s really not fun after a few days if you feel well. You are not allowed out at all!

Oh just seen your update, it has to be prolonged close contact. All the best

@Bjollocks

It just says continue to follow social distancing.

The employer is going by this guidance to the letter. Employer would not allow time off.

That’s the right thing though. What aren’t you getting about this?

@Bjollocks

I'm not angry!! Just amazed that the employer would not allow self isolation. They obviously were in close contact as he has caught covid from him!

I’m not inclined to reward stupidity either.

Why is SI a reward? Dh would certainly prefer to have not had to SI this past fortnight, as would DD.

The OP's relative did nothing wrong - she took part in a sport which is allowed under the Government guidelines.

It might be 'to the letter' but surely you can see how this increases the risk of covid spreading amongst staff?

Fortunately the employers of dh and our friend took a more sensible approach. The minute they knew I had tested positive they could leave work to begin SI, thereby reducing the risk of them passing covid on to anyone else.

[quote Missandra]NHS page that tells you when you should self isolate. It clearly states you self isolate if you’ve been in contact with a positive case, have symptoms yourself or you have been in contact with someone who has symptoms

www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/self-isolation-and-treatment/when-to-self-isolate-and-what-to-do/[/quote]
@Missandra. The link you have provided simply doesn’t say what you have just stated it does. See below. I can see that one might expect it to tell people to SI if they have been a close contact, especially given all the examples of slow T&T, and given that children are sent home from school with no involvement of T&T at all, but still, you are wrong. It says only SI if told to do so by T&T, hence the problem the op’s friend has with their employer

When to self-isolate

Self-isolate immediately if:

you have any symptoms of coronavirus (a high temperature, a new, continuous cough or a loss or change to your sense of smell or taste)
you've tested positive for coronavirus – this means you have coronavirus
you live with someone who has symptoms or tested positive
someone in your support bubble has symptoms or tested positive
you're told to self-isolate by NHS Test and Trace or the NHS COVID-19 app
you arrive in the UK from a country with a high coronavirus risk – see GOV.UK: how to self-isolate when you travel to the UK
What is a support bubble?
Information:
If you think you've been in contact with someone who has coronavirus, but you do not have symptoms and have not been told to self-isolate, continue to follow social distancing advice.

It might be 'to the letter' but surely you can see how this increases the risk of covid spreading amongst staff?

I’m an HR manager for an NHS Trust. Believe me, I understand how this spreads.

Fortunately the employers of dh and our friend took a more sensible approach. The minute they knew I had tested positive they could leave work to begin SI, thereby reducing the risk of them passing covid on to anyone else.

Your DH would have needed to isolate anyway given you had symptoms. How close did you get to your friend, and why?

I’m in charge of a work site.

We had one case where an individual knew they’d been a close contact, we sent them home immediately but it was 24 hours before track and trace contacted them. 24 hours of potential exposure to other employees.

We had another case where an employee was advised by someone he’d been in close contact with that they’d tested positive. Again we sent him home immediately - his ‘friend’ chose not to give his name to test and trace so he was never advised to isolate but we required him to do so because we knew he’d been a close contact.

It is really tricky for employers because you want to reduce exposure and risk but there are times when it is down to trust. However, I think our employees can see we’re making decisions based on what’s best for all, and are therefore acting responsibly and not taking advantage.

If someone told me they’d been a close contact and I didn’t send them home because they’d not been contacted by track and trace, and someone else contracted Covid and became really ill I would feel responsible.

Your DH would have needed to isolate anyway given you had symptoms. How close did you get to your friend, and why?

Our friends were borderline. We sat at a table in a restaurant, with mitigating factors at play. So, 1-2m away but not face to face, etc. but for longer than 15 minutes. So within the guidelines and the risk was minimal due to the masks, not face to face, hand hygiene, etc. , but we needed to ensure we didn't risk spreading it at their school.

I didn't have the 'big 3' symptoms so until the result came through DH didn't have to SI. Obviously once we knew the result he came home immediately.

@Aragog

You husband shouldnt have been at work. If you had symptoms and were waiting for test result, he should have been isolating until you got your results and only gone back to work if it was negative.

I was tested as routine for hospital admission. I was being investigated for non covid reasons. As it happens, those issues were being caused by Covid - but they (the various medics I dealt with) didn't realise this before the result came in.

WhereverIGoddamnLike

As said previously - my symptoms were not the big 3. I was tested, not due to symptoms, but due to hospital admissions.
Dh did not need to SI beforehand at all. We followed all the guidance given to us from the various doctors and nurse practitioners we dealt with at the time.

@rozzyraspberry

I’m in charge of a work site.

We had one case where an individual knew they’d been a close contact, we sent them home immediately but it was 24 hours before track and trace contacted them. 24 hours of potential exposure to other employees.

We had another case where an employee was advised by someone he’d been in close contact with that they’d tested positive. Again we sent him home immediately - his ‘friend’ chose not to give his name to test and trace so he was never advised to isolate but we required him to do so because we knew he’d been a close contact.

It is really tricky for employers because you want to reduce exposure and risk but there are times when it is down to trust. However, I think our employees can see we’re making decisions based on what’s best for all, and are therefore acting responsibly and not taking advantage.

If someone told me they’d been a close contact and I didn’t send them home because they’d not been contacted by track and trace, and someone else contracted Covid and became really ill I would feel responsible.

But as evidenced here and elsewhere, people are deciding themselves what constitutes “close contact”.

It’s pretty rare that contact is absolutely necessary for most people. They put themselves in that position through choice “, there should be some sort of sanction IMO.

Feminist - I agree they shouldn’t have been in close contact in any of the cases I referenced.

However, they were and my primary concern was for our other employees.

Incidentally the test and trace service in my area is relying on positive cases to decide who they’ve had close contact with, so is really no different.

Oh - and the only close contact I have had prior to catching covid was work. It is impossible to SD in a school full of young children. They are the only close contact I had in the week or two before catching Covid, other than DH. As said before, DH has had no symptoms plus his work is actually much more Covid secure.

We could have decided that friends weren't close contacts following the 'rules to the letter' but we were not comfortable with taking that risk - better to be over cautious than the too far the other way.

Legally employers can’t make people come to work or sack them if they don’t come to work as they are self isolating for 14 days. They don’t have to pay them.
Having a negative test doesn’t mean you can go to work as you can become positive at any time in the 14 days. Even with a negative test you need to self isolate for 14 days if you have been in close contact with someone who tests positive.
Forget track and trace , it’s irrelevant if they are involved, everyone is meant to be intelligent enough to understand this advice. The majority of people in this country clearly like to bend the rules to suit and the virus will spread and people will die prematurely.
It is the long term effects of Covid that worry me. Not for myself but for society.

It's not a question of everyone being intelligent enough to understand the advice, it's a question of what employers can get away with. You can't just forget T&T.

Here is the relevant legislation:

where the employer of a self-isolating worker or a self-isolating agency worker is aware of the requirement to self-isolate, the employer must not knowingly allow the worker or self-isolating agency worker to attend any place other than the designated place, during an isolation period, for any purpose related to the worker’s or self-isolating agency worker’s employment.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1045/regulation/7/made

The 'requirement to self-isolate' is defined here:

“isolation requirements” means the requirements in regulation 2 of these Regulations or regulation 4 of the International Travel Regulations relating to the circumstances in which an individual who is self-isolating is permitted to leave the designated place;

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1045/regulation/6/made

Reg 2 of these regulations says:

This regulation applies where an adult is notified, other than by means of the NHS Covid 19 smartphone app developed and operated by the Secretary of State, by a person specified in paragraph (4) that ... they have ... had close contact after 28th September 2020 with someone who has tested positive for coronavirus;

Paragraph 4 says:

The persons specified for the purpose of paragraphs (1) and (2) are—

(a)the Secretary of State;

(b)a person employed or engaged for the purposes of the health service (within the meaning of section 275 of the National Health Service Act 2006(7) or section 108 of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978(8));

(c)a person employed or engaged by a local authority.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1045/regulation/2/made

IANAL but the way I understand this is:

Unless / until you're officially told to SI, regulation 2 does not apply to you. You are not legally required to SI. If there is no 'requirement to self-isolate' then your employer does not commit an offence by requiring you to go into work.

It would be great if employers would act responsibly - and lots do - but many don't, even when times are good, let alone when they face massive losses and potentially going bust.

It would be great if employees SI as soon as they knew they were definitely contacts but if they have no legal right to the time off work and their employer says they must come in then what can they do?

This is why T&T must work much faster.

In the meantime, paragraph 4 is interesting because it doesn't say only T&T can tell you to isolate. It says 'a person employed or engaged for the purposes of the health service' or someone from your local authority (or Hat Mancock ).

I mentioned upthread another OP in this situation whose GP authorised their SI. I wonder if this is the solution for when T&T take too long - contacts could just swerve past them and self report to GP or LA public health.

Why are people being put in this position? Why didn't they just build in a way for contacts to self-report? That would seem quite a basic thing to do wouldn't it?

T&T has now failed to the point where it's sometimes necessary to route around it. This makes me so angry.