New guidance just published on Clinically Extremely Vulnerable

[Goldistheanswer]

I’ve just read the guidance and it seems that there will be no shielding apart from in very small (high risk) areas and only for short periods of time.

@IrmaFayLear

I know a few self shielders, with the old, “I didn’t get a letter, but...”

They are - rightly or wrongly - terrified and it’s up to them if they want to barricade themselves in. I wish they wouldn’t be so vocal about lockdowns and “lives before economy” though.

I agree that in somewhere like Merseyside I would be going round in a hazmat suit and would be grateful for specific guidance.

Perhaps those people without a letter were diabetics or hypertensives or had cardiovascular conditions. Three of the conditions with the highest risks of death - yet not on the shielding list. The shielding list ignored millions of the most extremely clinically vulnerable.

One in four of the deaths are in diabetics.

And as for the economy, we all know that the countries who've contained Covid have healthier economies.

That's because you can't have a functioning economy whilst a virus runs unchecked through society.

Hazmat suit in Liverpool? Why? It's likely safer there given they're actually taking containment action (unless Liverpool airport remains open).

[quote Ecosse]@cologne4711

The vast majority of shielders are over 65 so I would surmise that most will not be living with someone who works and cannot do so from home.

Paying shielders and their family members who cannot work from home is a lot more affordable than shutting down the economy and keeping everyone at home.[/quote]
You can't just shut up all the shielders and hope for the best.

This is the UK mainstream medical opinion on that.

All our lvies are too interconnected for that to work. Sorry.

blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/09/21/covid-19-an-open-letter-to-the-uks-chief-medical-officers/

@herecomesthsun

I’m not advocating just locking up the shielders and the rest of us getting on with it. I would keep the rule of 6, masks and social distancing in place until February.

Then we really do have to just get on with it if we don’t have a vaccine.

We are going to need to rethink things, with or without a vaccine. Masks/ screens/ WFH etc.

Absolutely not @herecomesthsun. We will rightly be back to normal as soon as we can.

Dream on.

Funding the vulnerable to stay at home to prevent hospitals being overwhelmed is a lot more affordable than shutting down the economy and keeping everyone at home.

But that wouldn’t solve the problem. The issue isn’t just that ‘the vulnerable’ are at risk so if they shield it’s all rosey. During the first wave our local ICU was full of under 50s many of whom were previously fit and healthy (some very fit).

There is also the impact on the economy of loads of people being off sick for weeks at the same time (months even with long covid).

Also ‘the vulnerable’ are often parents, key workers, essential members of society that are just as needed as other groups.

We have to have a balance of trying to keep the economy going whilst limiting the spread by.....following the guidelines.

There absolutely has to be a balance @Msmcc1212 and I’m in favour of the rule of 6, masks and social distancing.

I’m afraid i just don’t believe all these reports about ICUs full of fit 40 year old marathon runners though. The figures speak for themselves on this- fewer than 500 deaths of healthy under 60s.

An ICU doctor from the area was interviewed on TV at the time. He said that the beds were full of under 50s which hadn’t been what they were expecting. It was a longish interview if I remember so the whole thing may not have made it to the news. I’ll see if I can find the link.

Don’t forget deaths happen outside of hospitals too. Care homes were particularly effected.

@Msmcc1212
People like ecosse seem unable to comprehend what happens without containment measures. She can't grasp the fact that full hospital beds (and ill staff) = no hospital treatment= many more deaths.

She thinks the over 60s and millions of younger working age people are expendable. To the rest of us, they're parents of young children, doctors, nurses, other health and social care workers, teachers and school staff. To her, they're just The Others.

She also doesn't believe Long Covid is real. Heart, lung, kidney damage, type 1 diabetes, blood clotting issues. All fake. She thinks the doctors are making it up or exaggerating. As if the cash strapped NHS would set up treatment clinics for a non existent illness!

Like she says, she doesn't believe what we're being told by world governments, experts, doctors, scientists, the WHO.

I personally think the rule of 6 is crazy. You could see 48 different people in a day, indoors, for lengthy periods of time without breaking the guidelines. A different 48 the next. And so on. I don’t understand the science behind it all - except that smaller numbers give you the best chance of keeping 2m May be? A bubble makes more sense to me. But it’s not my area of expertise.

www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/18788894.dr-david-hepburn-coronavirus-situation-newport/

Here is again but talking about recent trend.

SheepandCow

Troll? Or real do you think? Russian bot?

Dr Dave Hepburn is the ICU doctor. He has been on TV in a pre-covid documentary too so it’s easy to get a sense of him as being very grounded and an excellent doctor. On his Twitter feed he is, again, saying it’s surprising that there are, again, people on ICU with no previous health problems, and younger than you might think. So same as he was saying before.

If someone won’t take the word of a clearly, well qualified, sensible and responsible medic working on the frontline then there isn’t a lot left to do other than legislate and prosecute

The team have also made a documentary about their experience of working in ICU during Covid and the emotional impact. Hard to watch but also a good reminder of why it’s so important that we all pull together and do what we can.

As I’ve stated on numerous occasions, I do support containment measures @SheepandCow.

I would reintroduce shielding on a voluntary and funded basis. I also support the rule of six, face masks, social distancing and keeping extremely high-risk premises like nightclubs closed.

However I believe the costs and effects of a lockdown do more harm than good.

Thanks for the info on Dr Hepburn. I must look at his Twitter. He sounds very sensible and knowledgeable.

I think a Russian 🐑 sheep. I'm one too (actually an English one but nevermind). I think we're all individuals with different views, not helped by UK (at least, English) government incompetence.

It's understandable why people can't see the point in restrictions. Our government failed to do it effectively the first time round. None of us want a repeat failed containment attempt. I only wish those in charge had been blessed with foresight back in January.

Hmmm, Royal Australian College of General Practitioners have also lost their minds and imagine long-Covid is real!

www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-15/long-haul-covid-19-symptoms-will-need-special-treatment/12766968

[quote cbt944]Hmmm, Royal Australian College of General Practitioners have also lost their minds and imagine long-Covid is real!

www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-15/long-haul-covid-19-symptoms-will-need-special-treatment/12766968[/quote]

I think they are better qualified than you to comment on the issue.

I think they are better qualified than you to comment on the issue.

I think you mistook my tone and intent!

@cbt944

I think they are better qualified than you to comment on the issue.

I think you mistook my tone and intent!

Apologies for that!

No worries!