Seething, this is why it's spreading

[Willbob]

We live in a local lockdown area. A family member went to visit another family member in a non lockdown area (I know they're not allowed, not my call, I wouldn't have). They went with their partner and child. Their partner and his parent are now positive, their childs nursery has closed as many of the children have tested positive. They haven't passed the details to track n trace because they visited ilegally. Of the family that they visited one is isolating, maybe? The other definitely isn't and wants to go to work. In the meantime my gran In her 80's has been visited for her wellbeing by one of the people who should be isolating (not known at the time).

I'm seething. This is why the pandemic is spreading and why the vulnerable are at risk. I'm 100% certain others around the country will being doing similar. How can the numbers be accurate and how can it possibly be controlled?

My son works in a pub. A member of staff came back from holiday ( this country) and her boyfriend tested positive. She had a test- positive. They shut the pub. All the staff were isolating until tested. All the rules were followed by staff. None of the staff contracted Covid. My son told them he had pages of customers names and numbers.
The test centre never tracked and traced them!

Try mindfulness

See I'm terrified that I'm not doing enough. DS is positive and isolating until tomorrow, but then has a big work meeting the next day - how can anyone be sure that he is still infectious tomorrow, but fine on Thursday? Likewise I'm isolating and my first day back at work I'm visiting a care home.. how can I know I'm not still infectious and pass it on the those poor souls?

@JKRowlingIsMyQueen

Nah, it's spreading because it's a virus, that's what they do.

When you open things back up, open schools, encourage everyone to go out to restaurants and pubs and go back to the office, it's gonna start spreading again.

"How can it possibly be controlled?"

It can't. You cannot control a virus ffs, I don't understand where this belief that you can is coming from

this

I was told yesterday about someone who has lost sense of taste but is not getting tested as they are socialising (illegally) as normal and don’t intend to stop. They are also continuing to work in a local shop. The person who told me is vulnerable in the context of this individual so I have no idea what if anything I can or should do

Seriously get a grip OP, you’re on a hiding to nothing.

@Itisasecret

Well no, it’s spreading because we are focusing on three main symptoms (often not present in children). Which means younger children will not be tested, people are not being tested and traced. Schools are driving infection because they sent everyone back with no mitigation. That’s the main reason it’s spreading, it’s just that people ignore that.

This, although agree OP, continuing as normal after testing positive is also causing transmission

Even if we went into total lockdown, the infection rate will never hit zero, because all it takes is a few idiots not to adhere to lockdown. Infections would decrease, but as soon as lockdown eases, back up the rate will go. It will just yo yo. The virus is here to stay until we get a vaccine. We have to either learn to live with it like other viruses, or just go back and forth into lockdown for months/years.

You can control a virus. It may not be easy or practical on a mass level, but in theory and to some extent in practice, of course you can. If you have a virus and stay in isolation during the whole or the majority of the time you are infectious, then you have controlled it to the extent that it cannot be passed on to someone else during that time. If you deliberately go out and have close contact with lots of people, you have provided likely transmission. The virus didn't get on the bus and take itself to the pub.

With asymptomatic transmission it is harder but there can still be some control by limiting our contact and practising hygeine.

Not total control of course, I understand that. But to just say it can't be controlled at all is not right. we have already shown we can bring cases right down through certain measures, and it rises again when they are reversed. It may not be possible to keep all those measures up, but they do effect some control.

@tillytoodles1

The basic rule is, if you stay in one place the virus can't move. If you start moving, the virus moves too. It's bloody obvious to anyone with a bit of sense.

I live in place A and work in place B, I could take the virus to and from the two areas. So unless it is made into law that I cannot do that then work will expect me to be present doing all aspects of my job.

It is a virus, it will never go away.

I agree by the way OP, it's not the only reason it's spreading but it is one of them.

People having a go at the OP struggle to admit that there are cases where people are just being selfish and careless. Not every breach of the rules is someone with emotional problems feeling a strong need to see a relative ( not that that necessarily would justify it) , often they are people who already have lots of social contact and just want to do whatever the hell they like with no regard for anything.

I have heard of at least two cases where people have not self isolated or quarantined and have then tested positive, having infected others in the meantime. Were they going out because they had to earn a living? Were they alone and suffering terribly? Not at all, they were healthy with regular contact with family/friends and not working, in one case just back from holiday with mates. They didn't isolate because in their words they 'couldn't be bothered'.

It is a virus, it will never go away.

No, I don't think it will ever go away. But....so what? It is a very long road from 'it will never go away' and ' we may as well give up and let a natural peak of infection trash lives, health, education and the economy'. Especially with a vaccine on the horizon.

The basic rule is, if you stay in one place the virus can't move. If you start moving, the virus moves too. It's bloody obvious to anyone with a bit of sense.

You would think so wouldn't you. Sadly there seem to be a huge amount of people with no sense at all, let alone a bit!

@JKRowlingIsMyQueen

Nah, it's spreading because it's a virus, that's what they do.

When you open things back up, open schools, encourage everyone to go out to restaurants and pubs and go back to the office, it's gonna start spreading again.

"How can it possibly be controlled?"

It can't. You cannot control a virus ffs, I don't understand where this belief that you can is coming from

The point about the HIV comparison, and norovirus comparisons, and cold and flu comparisons, is that we don't just shrug our shoulders and say "we can't control viruses so we'll stop trying to spread or catch those ones". We do what we can to prevent them being transmitted and to avoid catching them. Hence public health campaigns about those, about handwashing, condoms and 'catch it, bin it, kill it'.

This idea that because we can't eradicate covid we might as well not bother trying to limit its spread is not something we do for any other virus. It's just that what we're being forced to do to limit the spread of this one is more painful, more restrictive, more miserable than for the others - because of the nature of this virus and the hospitalisations (and deaths, but mainly hospitalisations) that it causes.

We can't control covid out of existence, but we can control it to keep it at low enough levels that we can all limp on until there's a vaccine or better treatments next year. People might not like it, but the alternative of letting it spread uncontrolled will have worse consequences. Yes it's making us all have to give things up and it's horrible and miserable and shit, but that's the situation we're stuck in for now. The alternative of uncontrolled spread will be worse (and not just worse for those 'other' people who are vulnerable - worse for all of us, if numbers get up as high or higher than in March).

And if there's no vaccine? Then we're still not magically going to be able to cope with millions of people getting covid at once, so anyone who thinks that at that point we'll be able to just give up and let it spread through the population as fast as it likes so we might as well do that now will find that it's not that simple. It looks like there will be a vaccine, but even if there isn't, the answer still won't be just to throw our hands up and say "viruses can't be controlled, so there's no point doing anything". We'll still be having to try to limit how much and how fast covid spreads. Learning to live with this virus means learning to live with precautions against it spreading uncontrolled throughout society (and hoping that those precautions are replaced by a vaccine, soon).

@Livelovebehappy

Even if we went into total lockdown, the infection rate will never hit zero, because all it takes is a few idiots not to adhere to lockdown. Infections would decrease, but as soon as lockdown eases, back up the rate will go. It will just yo yo. The virus is here to stay until we get a vaccine. We have to either learn to live with it like other viruses, or just go back and forth into lockdown for months/years.

Yup. Even without anyone not adhering to lockdown rules this would happen.

See Spain. And their (draconian) strict lockdown where dogs could exercise but not children! And how quickly infections rose again after that.

Very harsh penalties for breaking it, seemingly 99%+ compliance rate due to this, from what I have seen anyway? And as much locked down as possible (a total lockdown is not feasible for anyone. Shops must remain open. Healthcare staff need to be there. Even powergrid workers and broadband staff etc need to not be locked down). Strict mask rules after this (many statements about how UK should 'be like Spain' and make everyone wear masks, no exemptions on here).

Still back to square one because stuff has to open again to some degree, and when it does, virus goes back to doing what it does. And masks are not the magic bullet that many think they are (and that I WISH they could be too, btw).

Even with distancing, and handwashing, and masks, after a harsh lockdown, and with a working test and trace system, that brings results quickly rather than in weeks..a virus that is spread by simply breathing near someone, and does not even show itself in 80% of cases, will continue doing what viruses do. The answer, honestly, fuck knows at this stage. Its depressing me a little in all honesty.

Learning to live with this virus means learning to live with precautions against it spreading uncontrolled throughout society

I do agree with this though.

I do not agree that its a reasonable longterm precaution to stop people seeing anyone outside their household though.

But of course some things would slow the spread and just doing nothing at all is not an option (or not one many want to take, should I say, even those against some of the lockdown restrictions don't seem to think we should just 'let it rip' as so many seem to think. Or that doesn't seem common among that group anyway, some might think that!)

Am getting very down thinking about all this recently and think I might take a break from the covid part of this site. Not that that will stop it being a problem of course. It just seems to be bad news all the time these days and I can't see any answers anywhere which is stressing me

Try not to let it make you angry. People are going to keep doing this all the time and there is absolutely nothing that you can do about it. Your anger is only negatively impacting you.

I have found mindfulness to be helpful during this time. A pandemic is something that makes us feel powerless for a whole host of reasons. It takes a huge toll on one's mental health. Please look after yourself.

@Pixxie7

It will only be controlled once a vaccine is available, in the mean time we are responsible for our own behaviour. There is nothing you can do about others.

This.

Inkpaperstars posted:

"People having a go at the OP struggle to admit that there are cases where people are just being selfish and careless. Not every breach of the rules is someone with emotional problems feeling a strong need to see a relative (not that that necessarily would justify it), often they are people who already have lots of social contact and just want to do whatever the hell they like with no regard for anything.

I have heard of at least two cases where people have not self isolated or quarantined and have then tested positive, having infected others in the meantime. Were they going out because they had to earn a living? Were they alone and suffering terribly? Not at all, they were healthy with regular contact with family/friends and not working, in one case just back from holiday with mates. They didn't isolate because in their words they 'couldn't be bothered'."

Yes, that sort of selfish behaviour from the hard of thinking minority is making things worse for everyone. I have sympathy for someone desperately lonely and/or living in dire personal circumstances, who breaks the rules as a last resort, but not those who exhibit the sort of thoughtless behaviour that you mentioned above. I know we can't stop the virus in its tracks without a complete lockdown until the vaccine arrives, which is not possible as it would destroy society, but it makes sense to slow the virus down and it's annoying when selfish people won't follow guidelines which are there to help everyone.

It's a pandemic and we know it, but until we start to experience it, and by that I mean actually know someone who is ill, or has died, most of us are not affected personally, and yet we are all having to wear masks etc etc.

It's all so unreal and this is why people flout rules.

I do the right thing. I also mind my own business and don't watch others. It will get me nowhere.

Yanbu and I would be furious too.

It is selfish and self centred and I'm sick of idiots making excuses for their moronic behaviour.

Id report them.

@lljkk

pfffft... yes, how can we control normal human desires to have social contact with other people we care about. It does seem rather impossible.

It's not impossible at all. It's like any other situation where you have to exercise your self control.

@janetmendoza

See I'm terrified that I'm not doing enough. DS is positive and isolating until tomorrow, but then has a big work meeting the next day - how can anyone be sure that he is still infectious tomorrow, but fine on Thursday? Likewise I'm isolating and my first day back at work I'm visiting a care home.. how can I know I'm not still infectious and pass it on the those poor souls?

They have a pretty good idea of how long the infectious phase lasts for, though there may be a very few exceptions. You are doing enough if you follow the official guidelines.

YANBU

... mostly because they are not giving details to track & trace, because they did something illegal

If you choose to break the rules and then find you are positive, at least have the honesty to give all your contacts

I’m in a local lockdown area and one of the few to follow the rules.

The most annoying excuse is, ‘I don’t understand’ despite the rules constantly broadcast on local radio, websites and everywhere. The attitude is, ‘you’re all going to catch it anyway’ which is fatalistic and selfish.