Are the young being made effectively to lower their life span?

[SRYnegative]

i have, like many, had several changes of heart regarding covid. At the moment though, like many here, I worry that the young are being impacted more in their day-to-day lives than older people.

For what it's worth I'm 55 and rarely leave the house due to disability (chronic fatigue/fibro. overlap). I used to be a professional, and have 4 children, 14-23. So, of course, I have seen their lives affected badly e.g. school and 6th form closure, exam issues, university courses on-line etc.

I was already mulling this over with regard to the general theme of a couple of other threads. So, some would say that youngsters lives are being ruined as a lot of the rules impact them in particular (socialising being important to this group, wanting to meet a partner and so on) vs the alternative view that long covid is huge, millions will die, hospitals will be overburdened etc.

Putting all that to one side though, it occurred to me, thinking as many mothers do about their kids' best options, the following.

1. This virus is not going away. Only one virus has ever been eradicated by man (smallpox).

1. As a corona virus, immunity is likely to last 6 m to a year. However, this relates to your resistance to catching it, not to your ability to mount a successful immune response once you have caught it again. So you may well catch it again in 6m, but will likely mount a second successful immune response. This is what happens with the common cold as we have all experienced. Covid is a more severe illness in these days since we have not seen it before. People on remote islands who have never mixed with modern man have had a similar response to the current common cold viruses, which we fight successfully year after year.

So, eventually the virus will be the 4th common cold (not my idea btw).

1. What are we going to do, hide away forever? As a 55 year old, would I not be better off taking my chances now when the probabilities are more in my favour than as a 65 year old? Let's face it, we are all going to catch it in the end unless we self isolate and insist on very vigilant visitors - which I fully support btw for those who choose or need to, and I will fulfil my obligations on this, I have an elderly friend, a dad in a care home and a child with a severe vasculitic disease - I am very careful with the infirm and elderly.

1. Which brings me to the young. If I had a baby now, after it was a certain age and had a mature immune system, I think I would stop protecting the child from Covid (unless obviously if the child had a respiratory illness or such like). Because, as the virus is not going away, we need to start our complex, lifelong gaining of immunity to this new common cold. For example, a student hides away for the next 5 years, does all their classes online, then what? Ten, twenty, thirty, forty years of social distancing in work and in social life? And then, when they are 60 they might finally catch it and, like the remote islander, react badly and die?

Meanwhile, all the 60 year olds with us now, have lived to a ripe old age of 90.

Where is the sense in this?

@Plussizejumpsuit a few weeks? Really?

Most Unis are pretty much closed, apart from online lectures. These kids have already had 6 months of no education.

That’s pretty dramatic circumstances IMO

Not just “a few weeks of online learning”

It’s much bigger than that. Not over yet by a long way

Thing is, while I get where all this “buck up” stuff is coming from, it’s actually part of the problem. I know that will have me marked as a feeble whiner and part of a generation of snowflakes or whatever, but you know - you have no idea what I experienced or how you would have coped.

However, my generation are the children of parents many of whose mothers had untreated PND in the fifties and sixties. My MIL has needed years of therapy to deal with that, and I know lots who had similar childhood experiences. The consequences were and are real. Let’s not retrospectively deny that PND has been considered something worth dealing with until recently.

There is currently very very little provision for PND and it has increased in prevalence. My mother is a GP, I work with HCPs in the community and in hospitals, and I am in contact with other women in my situation. Part of the cause of the rise in PND is the lack of community support in itself, the isolation, which is ongoing. Whatever Matt Hancock says, there is very very little happening.

I know my situation isn’t the worst. I know I’m not the only one affected etc etc. But let’s have a little less of the minimising and implications of feebleness please

Btw I’m not the one comparing lockdown to the war - that has come from others. I don’t actually think there is any point in comparing as the world is a different place now

Maxine I agree the isolation is a problem, I mentioned it in my last post. I didn't know PND had increased but it doesn't surprise me. In the past you were much more likely to live close to mother/sisters/aunts/old school friends, I suppose now it tends to be replaced by mums you meet at groups so if groups aren't happening the support isn't there.

I don't think it is about feebleness and initially I was talking about children and students and I don't think they are feeble but I do think a relentless diet of how their lives are ruined isn't going to help them. I actually think they will cope perfectly well, they just need to hear a bit of positivity.

There is such a divide between people who are living relatively ‘normal’ lives and those who have seen their lives change beyond recognition. But large numbers of people are still working & kids are back at school. I’m a teacher, dh is working - daily life is still get up, bus, teach, collect kids, homework, marking, eat, sleep, repeat. Weekends are very different and no clubs etc. Not seeing grandparents except outside. Most people I know are similar, life is different but most people aren’t staying at home 24/7.

I wish we could gain immunity to flu by now and I wish they were able to develop vaccines like they do with flu every year. But like SARS , I am not sure they will be for awhile

OP I found the paper above interesting and understand what you were meaning about the vaccine being a possibility but perhaps not a cure

Sadly on here you often find people with quite 'set' ideas who are not open to new things so it can be difficult to have discussions at times.

Are you a medical doctor, OP?

OP: What are we going to do, hide away forever?

No, people say, there are vaccines being developed. Not just the obvious much spoken of lately one, that amazingly you don't seem aware of, but many, even though you say:

I am an immunologist, though have not been professionally active in the field for sometime, apart from currently doing an MSc (though I do have a PhD in clinical imm).

You suggest, re a vaccine:

You have heard of the common cold reserach unit? Success = NaN

and:

This is rather unlikely, as reading papers from the Common Cold Research Institute makes clear. Covid is a corona virus.

It is odd, as an immunologist, you keep separating the word in this incorrect manner. Also odd you are unaware the CCRU closed in 1989.

Do you know how many viruses affect humans? You cannot be serious in thinking we will eradicate covid!

Then, when asked about work on a particular vaccine (that previously you seemed entirely unaware of), you say:

It isn't a waste of time, but the evidence is that it will only grant immunity to infection for say one year, so it's not a cure all like some vaccines are. This is just the nature of corona viruses.

Again that odd separation of the word coronaviruses. Actually, it has been suggested of some of the severable viable candidates that it is thought they may require a booster shot in six months initially, or of others that they may require revaccination in say four years. Still, you keep backtracking.

The person asking the question clearly meant a vaccine that worked really well for a long period. I still think that's unlikely.

You say then, despite having previously been apparently unaware any vaccines were in stage three trials with promising results:

I have a PhD in Diagnostic Immunology. I'm not saying which uni as it would be outing. I don't understand why my "discourse belies" my "'sort of' academic credentials".

Well, I would suggest not being aware that the term is 'coronaviruses' rather than 'corona viruses' is a starting point. Not being aware that there are many vaccines in advanced stages of development, is another. And bringing up the old 'never found a cure for the common cold, which is a corona virus!' is yet another; then when someone points out that the common cold isn't one virus, but several hundred different strains, you say: corona viruses cause about 25% of colds

Well, according to your old CCRU back last century, it's 10% - wiki says now 15%; but then I am not an immunologist, like you; and even so, have heard of rhinoviruses, etc.

Most of your backup quotes and their sources seem dubious, and easily plucked from the front page of Google, and now and then you throw in a hodgepodge of supposedly meaningful figures, triumphantly... So, this is why I doubt you are or ever were an immunologist; though it is a common ploy for 'thought-provokers' re Covid to claim to be GPs, and so on, I think you may have over-reached yourself here.

@SRYnegative

Solomummy

If this continued as currently, that would be say 2 years of life that hasn't been lived as "normal".

You actually believe that the 2 f*ed up years are the same for you and them! And equally damaging? When did you meet your partner?
This is mumsnet so maybe before age 40 rather than 40-80

Actually not yet. So definitely 40-80 camp, not that I see any relevance. All young people are in the same position. I don't see that they're at any greater risk of long term impact than anyone else. I do however, think that if you plant the seed of this, a self fulfilling prophecy may well occur.

I’m amazed at people saying life hasn’t changed much for the young. Staggered. My kids are still fairly young but at present no guides/brownies/music has all stopped/barely see family/friends. (We are in scotland). My kids are ok for various reasons. Have student nephew is bordering suicidal at impact on his life. Elderly mother is feeling life isn’t worth living as her entire life was theatres, friends, concerts,

My husband isn’t sleeping for worry relating to his job. My best friend watched her mother die of cancer with horrifically neglectful care due to covid. I know if several people with serious conditions which weren’t treated. And I know of three people who have been sectioned.

I would say half my extended family is suffering low grade chronic anxiety and depression that wasn’t there before.

It’s horrific!!!!! Where will this stop? None of us give a shit about covid - even my sister who took 6 weeks to recover / we are all furious at this imposed destruction of life.

@Calledyoulastnightfromglasgow so sorry, that sounds horrific

I think things are bad and some people (including the government) have lost a sense of proportion about it.

My friend with stage 4 cancer had her scan postponed for 3 months. 3 months is the difference between life and death

The measures are disproportionate, and young people, people who are ill with something that isn’t Covid, and anyone who isn’t in a secure cushy (public servant or similar ) job has a lot to worry about

It’s as if only Covid matters now

I’m amazed at people saying life hasn’t changed much for the young. Staggered

100% this.

I think those who think this way haven't lost their income and must have lived a very boring lives before.

Our lives have imploded.
Dd has lost her business.
I have had to put what I was going to do on hold indefinitely.
Dp has lost a job opportunity.
Given his age and Covid he won’t get another.
Ds has had to put all plans on hold for the foreseeable future and lost all his income. (Some if it is coming back but not all and not the main part)

Even though I agreed with the initial lockdown (Although I thought it would have been only 4 weeks-6 weeks) I now think because people weren’t adhering to the lockdown it was badly affecting those that were complying.

If we go into lockdown again then the same people will just do the same thing again and those that do adhere will be in a worse position.

Drove through a nearby town a few weeks ago that had so many people on the pavement that they were spilling onto the road.

Not one person was wearing a mask. Definitely no SD.

The rate of infection there is close to having them go into lockdown.
Do I think that people there will alter their lives.
No.
So what would be the point of lockdown

@MaxinesTaxi

Btw I’m not the one comparing lockdown to the war - that has come from others. I don’t actually think there is any point in comparing as the world is a different place now

There is a point given the contention that the young will face shorter life spans because of the consequences of Covid. Which, although articulated badly by the OP, are that businesses are ruined and we are in debt, like much if the rest of the world. Other consequences, poor mental health and a lack of healthcare.

These are challenges faced by the war generation. They are the most long lived generation. Subsequent generations who didn’t face the challenges have gifted lower life spans. The war generation redefined their relationship with government and business.

There is no inevitability in any of this. How we face hard times is how we will get through it.

This last two weeks I've found some strength to start going again. I now get dressed every morning. I put makeup on. I put on a pair of heeled boots and I take my son for a walk. I am trying so hard to make the days have a purpose. I don't like masks. I think they would be optional. Just my opinion. They make me hot. I get anxious in them and after five minutes in the local shop I don't want it on my face anymore. So it's really restricted me and where I can go. I know some people think get on with it. But anxiety is a hard thing to live with.

See my horrific anxiety is triggered by people who won’t wear masks. I’m extreme, I’ve had GAD all my life, but fear of this virus has tipped my anxiety right over. And people who won’t wear masks terrify me. I won’t go in a shop if somebody isn’t wearing one.

I’m worn out with all of it, my anxiety is destroying me.

Agree that some people are either dense or downright nasty.

I can’t really say what I was up to for the past two years - save for a few highlights (and lowlights). When I was 20 on the other hand... and indeed all my younger years.

My ds and most of his friends have had their grad schemes not just postponed but cancelled. And no travelling, meeting groups of friends, and no finding of girl/boyfriends. Ds has been applying for any job but absolutely no luck.

I know one couple who seem to be loving things at the moment. Large secure income and haven’t been to a restaurant for years and would never go to the theatre/cinema/concert/sporting event. They pontificate about “lives over the economy” without any thought of the wider implications. It suits them to live cocooned in comfort so it should suit everyone.

Whilst life has returned to a very restricted normality I am surprised at the people who are still isolating at home.

It is like they don’t believe life has moved on from the initial lockdown and going out is now a thing to be feared and anyone setting foot over their doorstep is a potential murderer

I think some people are genuinely afraid (even if they live in an area with 0 cases) and others enjoy the drama and the superiority of doing lockdown better . They hoard more loo rolls, use more bleach on their shopping, have a better wfh set up etc etc.

I passed a house on a walk the other day and they had a chain across the drive and a notice, “Amazon deliverers - do not pass this point. Leave parcels in box.” It sounded so rude. No please or thank you. I bet they have a store of ammo to use on marauding mobs of neighbours after their tinned soup hoard.

But how has life moved on? Cases are rising like mad. Places are open, but it’s still not safe.

My life has been significantly impacted by the economic impact, my children are at an age where they are really struggling with not seeing family and friends (grandparents are in an area that hasn't allowed visits since shielding finished). At one point, one of my DC created a memory box so we could put everything we did together in it & when he moved out and we weren't allowed to see each other ever again we'd remember each other. So I'm not underestimating the impact.

But... I don't see the alternative. It's not about how many will die, but about how many will be ill at once. Services that can't run because too many people are sick. The pictures from the early days in Italy of an overwhelmed health service. I don't get how we manage that.

I’m not a Covid denier or mask refusenik at all, but I’m angered by the disproportionate and in many cases inhumane restrictions that have been placed on us in the name of ‘defeating’ this virus (a phrase that reminds me of the futile ‘War on Terror’ we’ve been fighting for much of the past two decades).

And, while I do think as a group the young have been disadvantaged the most, of my own friends and family it has recently been the older members who have been struggling. I still don’t know of anyone who has tested positive for Covid - plenty of scare stories and tests but no actual cases. But I do have a close family member who is currently on a ventilator after overdosing on antidepressants - an attempted suicide not directly caused by Covid (she’s had MH issues for a long time) but certainly exacerbated by lockdown, as she could no longer do any of the things (travel, theatre, coffee mornings with friends) that kept her going and staved off the depression. We can’t visit her in hospital and have no idea if she’ll recover. My own parents, after abiding by every guideline for six months, have given up and are bending the (increasingly labyrinthine) rules more than we are, and the ongoing plight of lonely, isolated care home residents is one of the most cruellest and most tragic things I’ve ever heard.

The measures are unsustainable (and, in the case of local lockdowns, not working) and I think people are beginning to wake up to that.

But how has life moved on? Cases are rising like mad

That depends on area

Some places have infection rates going down. Some have infection rates going up and some have infection rates staying the same.

How many of these positive results are because of big meet ups and just not SD like in the town I was driving through

@TempsPerdu I've been lurking and skim reading this thread but in recent weeks I have also noticed this parallel to the war on terror, all too forgotten now.