Are the young being made effectively to lower their life span?

[SRYnegative]

i have, like many, had several changes of heart regarding covid. At the moment though, like many here, I worry that the young are being impacted more in their day-to-day lives than older people.

For what it's worth I'm 55 and rarely leave the house due to disability (chronic fatigue/fibro. overlap). I used to be a professional, and have 4 children, 14-23. So, of course, I have seen their lives affected badly e.g. school and 6th form closure, exam issues, university courses on-line etc.

I was already mulling this over with regard to the general theme of a couple of other threads. So, some would say that youngsters lives are being ruined as a lot of the rules impact them in particular (socialising being important to this group, wanting to meet a partner and so on) vs the alternative view that long covid is huge, millions will die, hospitals will be overburdened etc.

Putting all that to one side though, it occurred to me, thinking as many mothers do about their kids' best options, the following.

1. This virus is not going away. Only one virus has ever been eradicated by man (smallpox).

1. As a corona virus, immunity is likely to last 6 m to a year. However, this relates to your resistance to catching it, not to your ability to mount a successful immune response once you have caught it again. So you may well catch it again in 6m, but will likely mount a second successful immune response. This is what happens with the common cold as we have all experienced. Covid is a more severe illness in these days since we have not seen it before. People on remote islands who have never mixed with modern man have had a similar response to the current common cold viruses, which we fight successfully year after year.

So, eventually the virus will be the 4th common cold (not my idea btw).

1. What are we going to do, hide away forever? As a 55 year old, would I not be better off taking my chances now when the probabilities are more in my favour than as a 65 year old? Let's face it, we are all going to catch it in the end unless we self isolate and insist on very vigilant visitors - which I fully support btw for those who choose or need to, and I will fulfil my obligations on this, I have an elderly friend, a dad in a care home and a child with a severe vasculitic disease - I am very careful with the infirm and elderly.

1. Which brings me to the young. If I had a baby now, after it was a certain age and had a mature immune system, I think I would stop protecting the child from Covid (unless obviously if the child had a respiratory illness or such like). Because, as the virus is not going away, we need to start our complex, lifelong gaining of immunity to this new common cold. For example, a student hides away for the next 5 years, does all their classes online, then what? Ten, twenty, thirty, forty years of social distancing in work and in social life? And then, when they are 60 they might finally catch it and, like the remote islander, react badly and die?

Meanwhile, all the 60 year olds with us now, have lived to a ripe old age of 90.

Where is the sense in this?

Solomummy

If this continued as currently, that would be say 2 years of life that hasn't been lived as "normal".

You actually believe that the 2 f*ed up years are the same for you and them! And equally damaging? When did you meet your partner?
This is mumsnet so maybe before age 40 rather than 40-80

I do think you make a valid point about immunity generally OP. I have been WFH and really not going out much at all since lockdown. I am quite concerned that I will not have immunity to other things when we are told to go about our normal business again.

@SRYnegative

^DianaT1969*

I am absolutely delighted that you are not cowering in your home. Look forward to seeing you at any future demonstrations against the madness of it all.

At last you come out with your actual stance. You think measures that limit your freedom are madness.

If that is the case then state it and make proper contentions and arguments for removing measures. Show that you have thought through the risks and known consequences. But stop spreading fake news. Basically you don’t have a positive argument. Just a claim to some sort of academic credentials, which your discourse belies.

People are able to go to work, school and into healthcare settings. The NHS is restoring services and preparing for a flu/Covid season. Whatever the rules are, the extent to what they can restore services won’t change.

There is no inevitability that the lives of the young will be shortened. War children and adults experience massive upheaval, lost out on education and were put under immense stress. The country borrowed more than we are currently doing. They had a long life span and rebuilt the country.

1. Even if the virus doesn’t go away, it can be controlled. Some viruses also lose their potency - or are we still being decimated by Spanish Flu?

2. Covid isn’t a cold virus so I don’t think you can compare them in the way you did. I’ve seen no proof getting Covid once will protect against future harm.

3. No, we’re not going to hide away forever. A vaccination is close and as every week passes we’re developing new ways to treat patients and help them better.

4. Again, you’re comparing Covid to the common cold and it’s not the same. You’re also assuming we’d develop immunity; that we’d have no vaccine; and that we’d have no more effective meds to treat it.

The young aren’t mainly being ‘confined’ (I don’t believe they are, BTW) for their own protection. The measures are an attempt to control the virus and stop it spreading. If we could do that, or at least reduce it to tiny outbreaks, then we could all get on with our lives. I’m sick of people walking around thinking “I’m not at risk so whatever”.

@SRYnegative

OP, what is your assessment of the situation if a vaccine is found in 6 months to 1 year?

This is rather unlikely, as reading papers from the Common Cold Research Institute makes clear. Covid is a corona virus.

Wtf?! As a former immunologist, or so you say, I am stunned you are not keeping abreast of progress on many different fronts on a variety of promising vaccines now in stage three trials. There were, last time I looked, 170 vaccine candidates; 9 are already in stage three. 'Rather unlikely' seems to indicate you believe all will fail. I find that odd.

Yabu

When people say they’re living their life ‘as normal’ did they not ever visit friends and family?
Did they not go to the theatre or to see live music? Sports events?
Did they only watch repeats on TV?
Didn’t they attend weddings and funerals and graduations?
Did they birth without their partners?
Were many of their friends, family and neighbours facing imminent redundancy?

Because if that is how they were living their lives anyway, it was never ever normal so of course they don’t notice the difference.

I find these threads where the OP portrays the majority as cowering in our homes to be disingenuous at best, and rather insulting.

I’m not cowering in my home but, like millions of other people around the country, it’s currently illegal for me to visit my parents. The idea that life is anything close to normal or even satisfactory for many of us is what’s disingenuous.

I don't understand OP saying that cv19 would be the 4th common cold when there are dozens of viruses that cause common cold (mostly rhinoviruses). There is theorised to be one common cold virus that may have started out like covid, but the other (coronaviruses linked to common cold) don't seem to have had covid's deadly potential. I don't think OP's understanding of viruses is very good. Coronaviridae is a diverse family.

I am mid 50s & would also choose to take my chances with covid. But this option is not preferred by majority. Plus, democracy needs to protect vulnerable minorities or democracy ceases to have legitimacy. I agree we may be shortening the lifespan of today's younger people with the after effects of current controls, but that may not happen. Most people prefer to worry about the risk that is more tangible and definite.

I like OP talking about the trade-offs, but don't think anything will change unless/until we get 3 years down the line & still little has improved.

@HelloMissus

When people say they’re living their life ‘as normal’ did they not ever visit friends and family? Did they not go to the theatre or to see live music? Sports events? Did they only watch repeats on TV? Didn’t they attend weddings and funerals and graduations? Did they birth without their partners? Were many of their friends, family and neighbours facing imminent redundancy?

Because if that is how they were living their lives anyway, it was never ever normal so of course they don’t notice the difference.

By people moaning about life not being normal, I was talking about people who I know, who are moaning but still see there friends and family, hugging and touching as normal. Take their masks of to chat at work many, many times a day, and go to pubs/restaurants/cafes as much as they can, because “it’s allowed.”

I don’t see family and friends as much as I should in general tbh.

I see your point re theatre and sports, but these are once a year things for me personally.

I watch ignore kids tv, which is mainly repeats anyway and then about an hour’s worth of Netflix at night, not had to watch repeats at all.

I don’t attend many weddings, not at the right stage in life for graduations. I did attend a funeral, unfortunately, and it wasn’t the send off that we would have liked to give the deceased.

The giving birth thing is awful, granted.

I don’t know anyone facing redundancy at the moment. The sector I work in is declining and has been for years previously so I’ve gotten used to precarious employment as have many people I know who work in low paid, ‘low skills’ jobs.

OP does not come across as being very knowledgeable in the field of immunology.

Pinch of salt time.

Many of the things that were previously available for those with older or without children are now available, with masks and social distancing. Many of those (Particularly free or low cost) for people like me, with a toddler and a baby, are not available at all, regardless of masks etc. They are just not open or not allowing toddlers, or the restrictions make it more trouble than it’s worth in terms of enjoyment.

When people say they’re living their life ‘as normal’ did they not ever visit friends and family? Did they not go to the theatre or to see live music? Sports events? Did they only watch repeats on TV? Didn’t they attend weddings and funerals and graduations? Did they birth without their partners? Were many of their friends, family and neighbours facing imminent redundancy?

I’m baffled by this too. I don’t think anyone I know irl would call what we’re experiencing now remotely ‘normal’ - even those who rarely saw extended family and weren’t regular theatre/gig goers. At best we’re going through the motions in a functional way; at worst the world feels like something out of dystopian speculative fiction.

And I do think the young are being disproportionately affected, but it’s not just about tangible, measurable things like the economy and expected lifespan.

At DD’s toddler ‘music’ class we’re no longer allowed to sing. At another class, which is meant to be all about communication, all adults now have to wear masks throughout. I took DD to the library yesterday, where previously we were regular visitors - half hour pre booked slot; no one else allowed in the children’s library at the same time (another family were barked at for wandering in); masks, sanitiser, track and trace, one way systems and staff who shouted at you for touching things. Our local pools are open for adult lane swimming but not families (luckily we can afford a private gym but the majority can’t). The impact of all this will have many subtle effects on children’s social, physical and cognitive development that will only becoming apparent in a few years’ time, when we start testing, measuring and comparing them to previous cohorts.

@SRYnegative

QueenStromba

You have heard of the common cold reserach unit?

Success = NaN

So you're trying to simultaneously argue that there is absolutely zero chance that there'll be a vaccine that gives even partial immunity or is effective in even a percentage of the population while at the same time arguing that having had covid will be protective? You can't have it both ways.

I don't think we're going to find a perfect vaccine where everyone gets one shot and everything can go back to normal. I think it's possible though that we'll find something good enough that we can drop a couple of restrictions and keep R below 1.

The real game changer will be treatments. Once we have something that can be safely taken at home in the early stages of the disease that significantly reduces hospital admissions then we can get back to something approaching normality.

FGS I could understand if this had been going one for years, but it hasn't even been a year yet! Its likely we will have a vaccine soon.
Young people are being failed by adults who should be teaching them some resilience.

FGS I could understand if this had been going one for years, but it hasn't even been a year yet! Its likely we will have a vaccine soon. Young people are being failed by adults who should be teaching them some resilience

Well perhaps in a couple of years’ time you can tell that to all the teachers of the four year olds starting school with diminished social and communication skills because a significant part of their early development was spent isolated from others, prevented from accessing facilities, trying to communicate with adults in masks and with parents trying to juggle homeschooling and full time work.

Quotes from a recent discussion paper from experts (in Nature: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7520880/).

Kate Bingham: "No vaccine has ever been developed against any human coronavirus, but there are good coronavirus vaccines for chickens and pigs."

John Moore: "Immunity to the common cold coronaviruses definitely wanes with time, such that people become reinfected after about a year (both naturally and in long-ago virus-challenge experiments)."

Of course, there are more optimistic quotes to be found, but I do not peddle "fake news" LemonTT

The common cold research place was closed down some years ago. People used to go there for holidays (and meet partners!) and were purposely infected/not infected/allowed to mix/not mix etc etc in order to determine how colds are transmitted. Eventually they drew a complete blank. You could squirt cold germs up a person's nose and they displayed no symptoms. Another person could get it across a table tennis table.

Hopefully knowledge and research methods have improved, but with a coronavirus it seems it's all about the body's response rather than transmission. A whole household could test positive, yet only one person be ill. Just like the common cold, where you may say, "I didn't catch the dcs' colds" but actually you did , but were asymptomatic.

At last you come out with your actual stance. You think measures that limit your freedom are madness.
I never said that specific sentence. I pointed out that I do follow the rules, and that I worry more about the freedoms of youngsters, not my own.

If that is the case then state it and make proper contentions and arguments for removing measures.
I think my arguments and worries are clear - the damage to a generation of irrational rules such as a 10 pm pub curfew.

Show that you have thought through the risks and known consequences.
I cannot in all fairness show that I have had many, many thoughts about these issues, and have merely presented my conclusions. I no longer publish but wanted to set out my point of view somewhere.

But stop spreading fake news.
See above

Basically you don’t have a positive argument.
I do: let the youngsters have a positive, delightful youth, as we did.

Just a claim to some sort of academic credentials, which your discourse belies.
I have a PhD in Diagnostic Immunology. I'm not saying which uni as it would be outing. I don't understand why my "discourse belies" my "'sort of' academic credentials".

common cold research institute
That was just an example of my soh, I'm afraid

If you were an immunologist you would know that the common cold isn’t one virus, it’s about 200 strains. We don’t keep getting the same one.

I don’t think there’s any reason to think vaccination couldn’t bring long term immunity. Also most people are not seriously affected by Covid.

Also there’s no way you are an immunologist and don’t know basic stuff about viruses

Well perhaps in a couple of years’ time you can tell that to all the teachers of the four year olds starting school with diminished social and communication skills because a significant part of their early development was spent isolated from others, prevented from accessing facilities, trying to communicate with adults in masks and with parents trying to juggle homeschooling and full time work
Well said TempsPerdu - so many stages of neonate's, babies', toddler's, children's, tween's, teen's and young adult's lives are being subsumed.

I got a great pension, own a house outright, had free university education etc etc and now my kids stay at home in case they infect people like me, or, in all fairness, their grandparents, retirees who do deserve protection, but who rarely go out and have a choice as to that.

If you were an immunologist you would know that the common cold isn’t one virus, it’s about 200 strains. We don’t keep getting the same one

corona viruses cause about 25% of colds
“It is quite possible that when these [common cold] coronaviruses first jumped over to humans, they would have caused episodes of severe disease,”
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7252012/

I thought there might be a discussion rather than an attack, accusing me of lying. I shall go away now to flouncers corner, or to the feminist board where I feel more at home...