How much are you willing to accept?

[TheFatBottomLine]

There are a lot of threads asking those who do not believe in further lockdown etc, how many people catching covid etc they are prepared to accept in this scenario.. So I'm asking those who want us to be stricter, to lockdown again etc.. How many businesses collapsing, how many unemployed, how many losing their homes, how many with declining mental and physical health, how many years of trying to repair all the damage this has caused, etc etc are you prepared to accept as the price of further restricrions and lockdown?

The thing is, yes, letting it run rampant will cause economic slow down a d delays in other treatments

BUT

It would be over so much more quickly and we can start to rebuild much sooner

This is like sticking a patient on life support a d kicking the day you pull the plug down the road

Both are scenarios are not good but one allows the majority of people to get back to normal when it’s over a lot more quickly - and yes that is at the expense of those people who unfortunately will die.

@Flaxmeadow

AlecTrevelyan006 That was then, this is now.

We had lockdown, the curve flattened. We started to lift lockdown and the numbers are rising again.

It hasn't gone away now

I can understand the logic behind the first national lockdown, even if I didn’t fully agree with it.

I don’t understand or agree with continuing restrictions because they are disproportionate to the problem we now face and are causing more problems than they are solving

The problem we now face is that some lockdown restrictions were lifted, so we need to go back into lockdown

The virus has not gone away and there is no lasting immunity

We have been told this from the start. That we would have rolling lockdowns and that it is an extremely serious situation. Why is this so hard to understand

i know the virus hasn't gone away, nor is it going to.

So, we may as well let the virus do what it does.

Sure we can keep the distance, wash hands, even WFH. Apart from that I'd open everything else up, sports events, gigs, theatres etc and get rid of restrictions on meeting up etc

There will be many people that will choose not to eat out, watch a show or a football match or whatever and that's fine.

Lots of people are going to get covid. The overwhelming vast majority of them will suffer none or only mild symptoms. Even those in the most vulnerable groups are far more likely to survive than die.

We can't keep stop/starting the economy because very soon there will be nothing to restart.

It's worth asking how people are justifying the rtrade off they think is right. The way I like to try and get at this is to say - how long are you willing to go on with these various levels of restrictions? The more authoritarian or frightened seem to not have any time limit, or they tell themselves a vaccine will come soon enough that we can just wait until then.

I think we need to look really closely though at timelines. Some of the restrictions could probably go on indefinitely like extra cleaning and hand washing. But others involve things that are normally considered to be at the heart of a democratic nation - freedom of movement for citizens within the country. Freedom to meet together. For some, like those in care homes, we have actually been mandating that these adults must stay in isolation, basically with no end in sight. These things might be justified for a short time, but it becomes more and more difficult to do so over longer periods of time - even if the virus is still active. Similarly in some countries where normal meetings of government bodies haven't been taking place.

I don't find it strange that some peopel think all these measures are, on balance, still justified. But I do find it a bit shocking that people aren't openly and often talking about the limits of restricting citizens basic freedoms, and when we might consider that we have reached those limits. On the contrary, many people seem to be essentially saying that there are no such limits.

@MiniTheMinx

PinkSparklyPussyCat, you would be surprised, what hunger or destitution does to your sense of sqeamishness! Just as well we have state benefits then.

I think your underestimating a needle phobia I was unemployed for many many years. I was offered numerous times to do an aged care course, go into nursing, even at start of this year I was offered. I refused every single time. I can't provide up to date vaccination status which would count me out of working even in catering or cleaning of a hospital. I can't even look at a syringe I'd be useless in the healthcare field, pandemic or not. People would die on my watch. I'd have more luck with crime, no joke Not everyone is cut out for care work, even in worst circumstances.

But to say I am not cut out for it is no excuse at all. If excepting minimum waged work as carer keeps a roof over your head and feeds your DC, what excuse do you have not to take this work?

Rubbish! Would you really want your vulnerable relative to be looked after someone who was only doing the job as they had nothing else? I know I wouldn't.

Well said - I had been thinking the same thing. It takes a special type of person to be a carer - and they actually have to 'care' about the people they are looking after, not just be doing it as a job because it was the only one they could get. Stupid suggestion.

But the reality is that your relative is being looked after by someone who probably is doing the job because they have nothing else.

I'm not in the UK but I can tell you that where I live that is very much not the case. And no, carers here are not paid a fortune either, although more than they used to be. I really can't imagine people wanting to do the job simply because they couldn't find anything else, it's not the easiest of jobs.

Alec,

If we opened everything and ‘let it rip’, it would be over with quicker but at a devastating cost.

The NHS would be overwhelmed, as would the funeral business, so think people dying at home without adequate care or pain relief, and modern day plague pits to bury the dead anonymously.

There is absolutely no way medics could treat the amount of sick without taking risk and getting sick and dying themselves, so we would lose a lot of them.

In addition people would choose to isolate over the worst of it and these might well include people like dustbin men.

Those unable to seek treatment for dying parents might get quite cross and march in the private hospitals (who would still be treating those able to pay). In addition food production and distribution might be affected.

Ultimately we may need full martial law and food rationing, which would make the lockdown to date look like child’s play.

You can ALWAYS rebuild an economy. Look at the Japanese economy post WW2. The idea of there being ‘no economy left to rebuild’ is just an empty soundbite.

You can ALWAYS rebuild an economy. Look at the Japanese economy post WW2. The idea of there being ‘no economy left to rebuild’ is just an empty soundbite. the trouble with that example is that the Japanese government/culture was very harsh and strict, and the people very submissive and compliant. In modern Britain there are too many people who would love to help but they can't because abc, or actually they're entitled to xyz rather than doing anything, and people who refuse to pitch in because the others aren't, or simply because they don't have to and what are you going to do about it?

Meanwhile, the few of us left in work will simply be run into the ground, and taxed more and more. There is no community spirit, there is no sense that everyone should do what they can. You can see that in the way certain people have consistently flouted the rules for COVID. What makes you think people are going to work and work to rebuild the country? We're not all Boxer the frigging horse.

@squeekums I'm sorry you also have a needle phobia but, in a strange way, glad someone understands. Some people seem to think it's a case of not liking needles, when it's far more than that.

Being told I could die without surgery was a wake up call, but even then I seriously considered not having it done. Thankfully DH was there to support me (literally!) otherwise I'd have declined.

@Dustballs

I was willing to accept all of the restrictions - before.

Now I am no longer willing to accept any of this. So much is being thrown at us from all angles. Ever changing. All the time.

It's turned into a dictator kind of state where nothing is discussed by parliament. Local authorities and councils of local lockdown areas are not consulted. We're told at 10pm the night before that curfews and restrictions are coming in.

It's all. Too. Much. And has to stop. Now.

I for one am not willing to follow any of this any more.

This does come across as a temper tantrum. Unfortunately we can't bury our heads in the sand. I favour the saving lives version of fucked as stated by someone earlier.

@larrygrylls what number of deaths would cause such a scenario? You'd have to be looking at a massive increase in overall deaths, and that wasn't the case even in march/April when we had far lower knowledge and ability to deal with severe illness. It's the lack of information and transparency on this point, the lack of published modelling, that is frustrating. Those models need to talk about the usual death rate per day, and the predicted percentage increase. With a huge increase in testing, you can't base it on known cases.
I think the only way out of this is we don't want the standard of living to sink to 1950s levels for the next decade is to invest in health care capacity and also, unfortunately, burial capacity. We seem to be so unwilling to accept this that we'd rather throw away absolutely everything else that has taken centuries to build.

tootletum

For me the important thing to remember is that people don't just suddenly and conveniently drop dead in their home. For every person who dies there are many many more in hospital, and even larger numbers being very ill at home and who aren't able to fulfil their normal roles as doctors, teachers, paramedics, pharmacists, carers, bakers, lorry drivers, etc. Allowing the virus to transmit largely unchecked in a short space of time would be horrific, partly because of people dying of covid, but partly because people having a stroke or heart attack might struggle to be treated in time, local pharmacies might struggle to have enough dispensing staff, there might not be enough carers available to look after vulnerable people in their own homes, deliveries could take longer to arrive because many delivery drivers are off sick, would power companies have enough engineers to swiftly repair the network, etc etc etc.

@BringPizza Maybe ppl should have thought of all that before they started "othering" groups in society, Single parents, disabled people, benefit claimants, social housing tenants. Some of these groups and others will be thinking its a bit fucking rich that all of a sudden the ppl who didnt give a shit about them for the last ten years and voted accordingly now suddenly dont want the individualism that they have spent the last ten years voting for.

e.g. A lot wouldnt give homeless people the steam off their piss yet now its wear a mask to protect others.

This does come across as a temper tantrum @monkeytennis97

It was a temper tantrum. It's all starting to feel too much again. Sorry.

Keep the economy going wherever possible, but restrict high risk areas, like pubs and clubs.
wear masks, socially distance, wash hands, gel etc to keep open whatever we can.
protect the vulnerable by shielding if possible, but protect as best we can and hope for the best.

we don't need lockdowns When the virus struck infected people were carrying on as normal and spreading the virus massively. We now know to isolate and test, and reduce the risk to everyone

"but they can't because abc, or actually they're entitled to xyz"

Entitled to what exactly?

AlecTrevelyan006
i know the virus hasn't gone away, nor is it going to.

So, we may as well let the virus do what it does.

Do what it does? If it was left to do what it does, we would have no functioning NHS or police or social services. The infections would climb steeply within a short space of time and keep climbing beyond what we saw in March in April. How can you want that

@HelenaDove some of us do give a shit and voted accordingly. Not every taxpayer with a good job was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

Some us are more physically capable, some of us are more intellectually capable, some of us are more practically capable etc nearly all of us have something we can do or give if we do come to the point of rebuilding the country's economy. But will we? This week people were up in arms at the government's suggestion of retraining, they looked for one example of something they couldn't possibly do- and fixated on that, instead of looking a little further and finding something they COULD do. That's British society all over these days. If we just say no for long enough then someone else will do it.

Well - what do you think OP? Or was your opening post the flourish of a rhetorical question?

@BringPizza I meant generally not you personally.

As long as its proper retraining and not workfare 2.0

@HelenaDove absolutely agreed. I cba to argue and I don't think we need to, I think we're banging the same drum anyway.

@BringPizza Absofuckinglutely.