Is this allowed under “group of 6”?

[Peasbewithyou]

Can I have 4 friends over one evening (socially distanced - we have open plan downstairs so space isn’t an issue), while DH & 3 kids are upstairs? The kids would be sleeping and DH either watching TV or working. So in the house would be a total of 9 people but on totally different floors and there are toilets on both floors so is it several “groups” so no reason for anyone to come into contact with anyone else.

It seems a bit ridiculous when if we went to a pub there could be another who knows how many people there sitting in groups just a metre or so away!

So would this be legal or illegal?

@Hermano

I'm doing fairly similar tmrw but with the twist, which may make it legal, that the person I'm visiting has a proper home office (locked door, separate entrance etc).

He and DH will probably end up talking about football in there while the other 6 of us play in the garden.

If we get door knocked by the police I shall tell them that's its OK, DH and I have covid symptoms and are just dropping the kids off for childcare in case we get really ill and can't cope. That is near enough word for word what the prime ministers closest advisor did, and everyone clearly stated it was legal, so it's my defence too.

For the record I don't have any symptoms and neither does DH. If we did then we wouldn't leave the house and infect family, obviously.

Interested in whether the 'proper' office premises makes it any different legally, but really I'm using my judgement and being perfectly sensible so I shall crack on

But the clear intention of Parliament is to stop people gathering in groups of more than 6. The situation here is a group of 5 and some other people keeping well out of the way and not risking spreading covid. Where’s the mischief?

It’s only a problem for people who enjoy making illogical pronouncements about what other people cannot do. And it is clearly illogical to say “oh of course they intended all people in the building even if some of them are asleep”. I mean that is just bonkers. Why would anyone think the government intended that? Ok, I take that back, the government are bonkers.
But if I was in this situation I’d be showing this law to any policepersons who called.

@rwalker “hell bent”? I haven’t said I will be doing it at any point... I just said I wanted to understand if it was technically illegal or not. I was just outlining the situation in terms of loos etc so people had the full picture. The hunting thing was a joke...

@flowerycurtain that’s a good point. I was very strict during lockdown and really limited in terms of what we did over the summer. I will do all I can to avoid a second wave. I’m not saying I will definitely do this by any means, I just wondered if it was technically allowed. And if I do see any friends these are the ones I would prioritise.

OMG this thread.

Think I’m going to post “yes, 5 is less than 6 so it’s legal” every 10 minutes or so

Whether it’s wise or not depends on whether you live in Colchester or Bolton I suppose.

This was the twitter reply by human rights lawyer Adam Wagner (@AdamWagner1) to this question: "Trying to work out if my sleeping children upstairs count as part of a "gathering" downstairs in my home?"

Answer:
"A few people asking this. If you look at the definition of gathering it requires some form of intentional engagement in social or other activity together. Sleeping children aren't doing that. I don't see how they count in the 'gathering' if they are upstairs asleep".

I completely agree with @JellyBabiesSaveLives analysis.

I think it’s illegal?

Thanks @JellyBabiesSaveLives!

Where I live happens to have lower than average rates of infection (at the moment obviously I realise that could change. Maybe if everyone is encouraged to meet in the pub because their sleeping children count as part of the 6!)

Thanks @BlueRaincoat1

I must admit I thought it was totally illegal. Interesting to hear other perspectives and proper analysis of the legislation.

I read legislation for a living and even I think this is incomprehensible. I'm also looking forward to seeing what constitutes a "mingle" (ignore the strike through - I can't get rid of it).

5.(1) During the emergency period, no person may participate in a gathering which consists of more than six people unless
(a)
all the people in the gathering are from the same household, or are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other,
(b)
the gathering is one to which paragraph (2) or (2A) applies and the person concerned participates in the gathering alone or as a member of a qualifying group, or
(c)
paragraph (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place on or at premises, other than a private dwelling, which are—
(a)
operated by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body, or
(b)
part of premises used for the operation of a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution or a public body.
(2A) This paragraph applies to a gathering if it takes place in a public outdoor space which does not fall within paragraph (2)(a) or (b) and—
(a)
the gathering has been organised by a business, a charitable, benevolent or philanthropic institution, a public body, or a political body, and
(b)
the gathering organiser complies with paragraph (5G).
(2B) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(b)—
(a)
“qualifying group”, in relation to a gathering, means a group of persons who are participating in that gathering and which—
(i)
consists of no more than six persons, or
(ii)
consists of only persons who are members of the same household, or who are members of two households which are linked households in relation to each other;
(b)
a person participates in a gathering as a member of a qualifying group only if they are part of a qualifying group and, whilst participating in the gathering, they do not—
(i)
become a member of any other group of persons participating in the gathering (whether or not that group is a “qualifying group”), or
(ii)
otherwise mingle with any person who is participating in the gathering but is not a member of the same qualifying group as them.]

@JellyBabiesSaveLives novel approach including the actual legislation. Rather than what your auntie told you, or what you overheard on the bus.

The legislation is pretty clear to me that the gathering has to be for the purpose of socialising for it to need to stay 6 or under. Two sleeping babies upstairs are legally clearly not part of the gathering, therefore on this basis I overturn all the people saying drone-like 9 is more than 6 and declare it legal

gavel

No you can’t. It’s 6 in total counting everyone in the house at the same time, regardless of where they are

I've cancelled plans for a garden party for 6 whilst dh and kids stay indoors as we understood it to be illegal.
We have a separate entrance to the garden and a downstairs loo that is also separate but none the less we'd all be on the premises and my kids being teenagers we felt it important to abide by the law, however nonsensical

@Chloemol

No you can’t. It’s 6 in total counting everyone in the house at the same time, regardless of where they are

You sound very definite about that, where is it written?

People keep mentioning 6 people under one roof. This is not in the legislation. The definition relates to a gathering for a purpose. Children who are asleep upstairs clearly won't be included in that.

Gathering definition "there is a gathering when two or more people are present together in the same place in order to engage in any form of social interaction with each other, or to undertake any other activity with each other.."

Completely agree BlueRaincoat

I would still do it.

It is interesting how so many people like to interpret the law more harshly than is necessary. It's like the whole going for a walk for an only an hour thing that people decided was true.

In reality illegal but if you sent your husband out it would be legal ridiculous rules.

Illegal but if you must do it, make sure you ventilate the room or meet in the garden if the weather allows it

If you’re in England, it would be illegal - if you’re in other parts of UK, then the children under 12 years of age don’t count and so it would be fine. I think that’s me remembering right, although I did read that article a few days ago. Equally, in Wales, I don’t believe that applies to outdoor gatherings, but not sure re England/Scotland.

I’ve had a brief read of the legislation and I can’t see anywhere where it says there must me no more than six people in a house. As previous posters have stated, it talks about “gatherings”. This is the problem with drafting legislation so quickly in an emergency situation. It leads to gaps and uncertainty. Unless and until the courts hear cases on this subject, we won’t have a more definitive view. However, I would be surprised if any such cases actually end up in the courts.

It is legal as long as the children don't mingle (which they clearly wont). Previous poster very helpfully provided the law and commonly held definition of mingle is " to move around and talk to other people at a social event: eg.
You've been talking to Roger all evening - you really ought to be mingling with the other guests." (Cambridge Dictionary)

For those people saying it is illegal, please read the legislation. It really isn’t that clear cut.