Looks like shielding might be returning

[2X4B523P]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8727553/Up-4-5million-risk-Covid-told-stay-home-new-shielding-plan.html

Couldn’t see another thread but excuse me if I’ve missed it.

So shielding is currently paused and it looks like there’s a plan to restart it and with extended to more people.

@FourTeaFallOut

Shielding is a choice is a something I'll stand by. I am ecv and I shielded following the letter. But the alternative to the fact that shielding is a choice is the mis-truth that shielding is mandatory. Peddling the myth that shielding is mandatory extends the idea that there are good shielders and bad shielders and that discussion of who is to be judged worthy is part of a legitimate public discourse - as can be seen on this thread.

I agree that it can be twisted as such, but those non-shielders (I assume) in here are using the word 'choice' to undermine us when we point out how hard it is.

Choosing between a likely catastrophic health event and shielding is not a real choice in my view, although I take your point that it is not (and never should be) mandatory.

I thought England had discussed smart shielding? Something else that's fone by the board I expect. I understand the blanket shielding the first time, but they should have re-assessed by now with increasing knowledge. They won't touch BAME. Too much of a political backlash. They should have refined it by now. Eg I know now that being on immunosupressants means that I have no greater risk of catching it, but more risk of being severely unwell if I do. That's just one cohort. They must know more by now.

Also, thre seem to be two or three conversations on here pretending to be one. There are a few TINPans (There Is No Pandemic: thanks to @Piggywaspushed for that one), pushing their own narrative.

Also a fair few 'sorry you've got cancer but my children matter more than you' types (exhaustingly common).

None of these seem like 'suck it up for the greater good' retiring flowers. How would they respond in our shoes, I wonder?

If @Ecosse was diagnosed with leukaemia tomorrow (and it goes without saying I sincerely hope she isn't), would she be happy to accept potentially losing her job, homeschooling her children and being completely isolated for the foreseeable without a fuss? It seems unlikely.

Scientists and doctors around the world recognise that Long Covid is a consequence for a minority of Covid sufferers,
with seriously debilitating symptoms continuing for an undetermined period

Covid is too new to know how these cases will progress in the future, but the NHS is already organising resources to treat and rehab Long Covid sufferers

The figure I have generally seen is that about 1 in 20 of confirmed cases that have symptoms experience Long Covid
This estimate may change as we get more data over the next months

@housemdwaswrong where did you find out about that and immunosuppressants please?

Could be waiting for the track and trace app to further define who needs to shield.

Anyone who downloads it will be asked for personal info and it will track how much risk you are taking as well as tracking everywhere you go. You will also be encouraged to scan QR codes.

Cannot be used in schools as it's not for under18's.

FourTeaFallOut

It doesn't feel much like a choice though. Shielding or taking the chance of getting seriously ill or dying - it feels like choosing between a rock and a hard place. You come on here and see people exclaiming that it's not much of a risk for anyone, regardless of age or medical history but then I've had two consultants and a GP pressing home how dangerous this could be for me and how I must take the risk very seriously - are they being over anxious or is mn being too optimistic? Who knows?

I know it doesn't feel much like a choice and it is, absolutely, a rock and a hard place. I don't deny that. But we are not state owned. We are not compelled by law to comply with shielding and I think that must be made plain in the face of all this shit where we find ourselves observed and othered in a myriad of upsetting ways.

@FourTeaFallOut

I know it doesn't feel much like a choice and it is, absolutely, a rock and a hard place. I don't deny that. But we are not state owned. We are not compelled by law to comply with shielding and I think that must be made plain in the face of all this shit where we find ourselves observed and othered in a myriad of upsetting ways.

Agree with that wholeheartedly.

@Lockdownseperation

www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/covid-19-study-good-news-for-rheumatic-disease-patients-on-immunosuppressants/

Actually no increased risk bar prednisolone...I take that, that's was my.point of.reference..apologies.

@housemdwaswrong brilliant, thank you. I will take a good look later.

:)

Long covid’ just does not exist @SheepandCow. There will be people (fewer than 1%) who suffer a post-viral reaction but that is no different to any virus.

@Ecosse - this is not the view of experts - eg Johns Hopkins and research articles Published in BMJ.

And here is a study from an Italian hospital (Courtesy of BMJ)

What does the evidence say?
Aside from anecdotal evidence, there is as yet little research on this issue. However, it is being actively discussed within the research community. Writing in JAMA, a team of researchers from Italy reported that nearly nine in 10 patients (87%) discharged from a Rome hospital after recovering from covid-19 were still experiencing at least one symptom 60 days after onset. They found that 13% of the 143 people were completely free of any symptoms, while 32% had one or two symptoms, and 55% had three or more.3 Although none of the patients had fever or any signs or symptoms of acute illness, many still reported fatigue (53%), dyspnoea (43%), joint pain (27%), and chest pain (22%).Two fifths of patients reported a worsened quality of life.

So clearly doesn’t exist

@Ginogineli the company my shielding husband works for are doing well. Profits are up. They are manufacturing.
Re shielding I heard it may be reintroduced locally in areas with local lockdown. Not nationally.
As a family of 5 it was tough. The only blessing was that dh could and still does. Wfh I lost money as self employed with very low earnings in previous years abd my work stopped.
My biggest worry is schooling for dc if it happens as I could make the cut this time too and sd in the home was tough.

On another thread someone suggested that those who had been advised to shield but didn't want to should be asked to sign an advance directive instead. Some people really do think like that.

If the government expand the shielding group to include e.g. everyone over a certain age or BMI, rather than people with very specific health conditions, I can absolutely see some people being given a very hard time for 'shopping while old', 'going to the park while fat' etc. just as people are given a hard time for being unable to wear a mask.

Throughout this pandemic there have been comments, in response to someone explaining the difficulties they or a relative are having with the rules and restrictions because of a health issue or disability, that if they're that vulnerable they should be shielding anyway.

So it's very, very important that we do keep stressing that shielding is not compulsory and the people on the list have the same rights as everyone else.

At the same time yes, for many people it's not much of a choice at all because the risk is so great for them, and they live somewhere with high community transmission. And those in care homes don't even have the illusion of choice, whether they're on the shielding list or not. There's a human rights case being brought about this:

www.carehome.co.uk/news/article.cfm/id/1632907/Families-demand-PM-fix-guidance-on-care-home-visits

@canigooutyet

Could be waiting for the track and trace app to further define who needs to shield.

Anyone who downloads it will be asked for personal info and it will track how much risk you are taking as well as tracking everywhere you go. You will also be encouraged to scan QR codes.

Cannot be used in schools as it's not for under18's.

If that's true then I won't be downloading it. I was willing to do it if it was a case of being contacted if I'd been in contact with someone who tested positive but there's no way I'm putting any personal info into a government app. (Yes I know they can track me through my phone but that's all the info they need)

The whole reason why we don't currently have an app is Apple and google refused to allow an app that delivered personal data to the government

So your data can go into the app and processed without needing to be delivered to the gov

With apologies for the diversion

Happy World Lymphoma Day
@MilesJuppIsMyBitch

@iVampire

With apologies for the diversion

Happy World Lymphoma Day
@MilesJuppIsMyBitch

Wow thanks @iVampire !

I had no idea.

Thanks for thinking of me: hope you're doing ok

Re shielding being a choice. I was responding to people speaking about shielders being 'locked away'. They're not. Adults with capacity have always been free to risk their lives, be it from a virus or anything else. People who were originally shielded were given a choice other extremely clinically vulnerable people weren't. 25% of the deaths have been in diabetics. They weren't given the choice of protecting themselves. No doubt any new shielding list will also exclude many people who have high risk of serious illness or death from Covid, who wouldn't be priority for hospital beds or treatment. These people won't even get the option of staying in (priority supermarket slots, employer obliged to do all they can to allow WFH or unpaid leave, etc). Of course it's impractical particularly for people who live with other non shielded household members. It's just that it's not being locked away. There's been posts from people with shielding status who decided not to. They weren't arrested.

And we now know that everyone is potentially at risk from Long Covid. I wouldn't personally have chosen shielding I'd have opted for measures that protect everyone (the Australian and New Zealand approach).

I’m fine - blood behaving at present. Virtual London Marathon in less than a month!

(even though that contradicts the idea that all shielders are at dearth’s door)

@Hipsterpotamus there was also a significant increase in DNRs amongst the vulnerable. I believe some Trusts also adopted palliative care only for elderly patients.

[quote housemdwaswrong]@Lockdownseperation

www.manchester.ac.uk/discover/news/covid-19-study-good-news-for-rheumatic-disease-patients-on-immunosuppressants/

Actually no increased risk bar prednisolone...I take that, that's was my.point of.reference..apologies.[/quote]
I'm sure I read recent research suggests prednisolone isn't an increased risk afterall - and in fact it might help. It was initially thought only dexamethasone helped but they've now found other immunosuppressants help seriously ill Covid patients.
It makes sense since Covid appears to be an inflammatory and vascular disease.

It would be interesting to know the percentage of immunosuppressed patients who've been hospitalised or died with Covid. I vaguely remember reading something recently suggesting that rheumatoid arthritis patients, for example, were underrepresented. It's not down to shielding since we're the only country to have done that.

@FourTeaFallOut

I know it doesn't feel much like a choice and it is, absolutely, a rock and a hard place. I don't deny that. But we are not state owned. We are not compelled by law to comply with shielding and I think that must be made plain in the face of all this shit where we find ourselves observed and othered in a myriad of upsetting ways.

I fully realise that I am not being compelled to shield, by law. But that still doesn't negate it feeling not much of a choice. The choice is have freedom to do what you want, but possibly catch Covid which, in our medical opinion, is likely to make you very, very ill with the potential for long term complications if you survive, and there's a real chance you won't or shield.

That doesn't feel like a choice to me unless you are particularly fatalistic or have a death wish.