Why can’t we do what Italy are doing?

[CKBJ]

In Italy schools are opening, the new term is starting. Teachers wearing face masks and visors, pupils wear masks, socially distanced in class at 1m and pupils who live with vulnerable adult(s) can have lessons remotely.

We basically have had similar cases levels of Covid as Italy albeit our hospitals weren’t over run but our death rate is higher. Surely our government could have implemented similar measures to Italy for September and possibly relaxed some of them as the term progresses rather than basically start as normal and hope for the best?

@JingsMahBucket

Regarding the question about who will teach the remote kids — there’s a whole bank of supply teachers who likely need work as well and who are qualified.

Instead of looking at this as a giant clusterfuck and complaining, you could see it as a massive job/work program to get thousands of people working again.

Or you can just keep complaining, hand wringing and “yeah but”-ing your way to a ruined educational system.

Or you could say but the useless Government have given fuck all money to schools, not even for soap, so they aren't going to be doing anything like Italy has done.

@NotTHEBupcake

I agree that remote learning could be done by fewer teachers. It's not ideal, obviously, but neither is sending kids home for a fortnight with only worksheets to do, or having teachers working day and night to teach their own classes plus prepare video lessons.

Obviously you need the pupils to be a bit self-motivated to get the most benefits, and you need to organise some kind of marking system (again, maybe teachers who are shielding could be involved), plus you need to ensure that all children have access to it when they need it, but it's worth considering.

There seems to be a small subset of teachers on here who just say "no, absolutely not" to anything new, but in real-life all the teachers I know are willing to give most things a try.

It all needs government backup and funding, though, which seems to be lacking.

Teachers are not saying no to everything. The point is that all these things cost money. The Government has not given a penny to schools. Schools budgets have been slashed year on year. The DFE has been fucking useless too. Stop having a go at teachers who know the reality of the situation.

Jason118 posted:

"@Defenbaker if you think that the fact that state schools haven't kept up with population isn't a government problem, then it explains perfectly well why we are in this mess."

@Jason118 - I meant that it's not the fault of any particular government, either the current one, or previous ones - it's the cumulative effect of years of underfunding by successive governments. Same goes for the situation with social care and mental health care - underfunded for years by successive governments. In truth, it would probably require a sizeable increase in income tax to pay for the changes that are needed, but no government likes to make itself unpopular by raising taxes.

Money

@Defenbaker apologies, I misunderstood, I completely agree with you.

It's interesting that the situation reads differently from media linked to Italy rather than from a UK perspective:
www.thelocal.it/20200826/covid-19-italy-calls-summit-on-school-reopening-after-teaching-staff-test-positive.

It isn't all smooth sailing anywhere and this is a new situation; government doesn't move that fast and no country has nailed a perfect solution while there are still cases in circulation. The size of government debt is already eye-watering; of course some money should be found for schools as well when it's clear what's needed, but the only very good solution of whole new buildings and cohorts of teachers would be a huge cost with near impossible coordination. Has the laptop issue even been sorted yet?

Given the hundreds of billions covid has already cost us/the govt, couldn't we spend whatever it costs setting up decent remote teaching? The teachers don't even need to be in the UK of course.

The Local article is a bit of a red herring (as they usually are)
Yes, there has been a Ministry of Ed meeting today. It wasn't held because some teachers have tested positive. All teachers have been invited to take a test, so of course some are going to be positive. The meeting was to finalise new recruiting (massive shortage of teachers all over Italy) procedures, the protocols that will be followed if someone tests positive etc.
At the moment schools are set to open from the 14th Sept depending on the regions so at the moment there are lots of meetings at national, regional and local level.
The general feeling is hopefully everyone will be in school, but truly nobody knows yet.

@TheSeedsOfADream - I didn't post it because of the teacher covid results, but the comments that:

• the desks are thought to be delayed until October
• there is ongoing debate and dispute about masks
• there are complaints that the rules aren't clear.

It's not as different as it's being held to be in the OP.

Because we have got a ‘world beating’ plan that is better than Italy’s. Like our ‘world beating’ track and trace system - remember.

All presided over by our world beating dunce of a Prime Minister and his empty headed yes men in the Cabinet. Step forward please Gavin Williamson and Matt Hancock.......

Guardian article written in April;

"Italy spends a lot less on education than almost every other western country. Spending per student (from primary school to university) equates to $8,966 per annum, compared to $11,028 in the UK and $11,502 in Sweden.The under-investment is so serious that in December 2019, the education minister, Lorenzo Fioramonti, resigned in protest."

"There is minimal teacher-training in Italy. University graduates are often thrown into a classroom without any knowledge of pedagogic theories or practical experience. Inspections are almost unheard of" ...
"Because of that lack of money, and because, according to the OECD, Italy has the oldest teachers in the world–59% are over 50–Italian schools are heavily analogue" ...

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/24/italy-home-schooling-coronavirus-lockdown-what-weve-learned

@JingsMahBucket I think FTTP (fibre to the premises) into schools would take a lot longer than a few weeks,
Same with devices, world manufacture stopped for at least 3 months and everyone and his dog wants fibre, routers and laptops.

Of course had this been planned for in April May, it would now be happening but foresight and planning is in equal short supply.

The thing that people who don't work in schools don't get, is that teaching is relational. To be effective, you need to know the children and establish an effective learning relationship with them

In an ideal world, yes. But we don't live in an ideal world. In my view, remote/online teaching is better than no teaching at all, but most teachers seem to take the opposite view. I know I'll get blasted on the staffroom threads (yes I do read them)! I've done plenty of online MOOCs and I've also listened to plenty of recorded webcasts - both via my computer and my phone. If I can do it, kids can do it.

Teachers self-evidently can't teach face to face AND remotely so the only real option is to record lessons for kids to listen to at home. No it's not ideal. One of the MOOCs I did had some of the lectures done that way and it wasn't very engaging. But better than no lecture at all.

[quote Clavinova]Guardian article written in April;

"Italy spends a lot less on education than almost every other western country. Spending per student (from primary school to university) equates to $8,966 per annum, compared to $11,028 in the UK and $11,502 in Sweden.The under-investment is so serious that in December 2019, the education minister, Lorenzo Fioramonti, resigned in protest."

"There is minimal teacher-training in Italy. University graduates are often thrown into a classroom without any knowledge of pedagogic theories or practical experience. Inspections are almost unheard of" ...
"Because of that lack of money, and because, according to the OECD, Italy has the oldest teachers in the world–59% are over 50–Italian schools are heavily analogue" ...

www.theguardian.com/education/2020/apr/24/italy-home-schooling-coronavirus-lockdown-what-weve-learned[/quote]
And despite this they’re still taking far more measures than us. Hiring thousands of temporary teachers and using public buildings.

@Jason118 No worries.

“ All teachers have been invited to take a test, so of course some are going to be positive.“ posted up thread. Again why couldn’t that happen in UK? It would help prevent spread in schools and community.

GailWeathers9
And despite this they’re still taking far more measures than us. Hiring thousands of temporary teachers and using public buildings.

And still they protested;

"The protesters point out a number of flaws in the plan. Generally, the plan is considered to place too much responsibility in the hands of schoolmasters and local administrations, which are going to have to rethink the entire organization and offer in a substantive way, without having clear directions. Furthermore, the practice of distance teaching, which was not homogeneously efficacious around the country during the lockdown, with varying levels of implementation and success between different schools and regions, is also regarded as poor substitute for traditional school, destined to aggravate inequalities between students."

"Moreover, the introduction of third parties in school activities, especially when coming from private players, is seen as contradictory to the principle of “public” education and, especially if not regulated, could lead to distortions in the education pupils receive. Finally, the government has announced that 50,000 new teachers [includes teaching assistants] will be hired across the country to work in the new classrooms that are going to be created, but their contracts are going to be temporary and these numbers are believed not to be sufficient: according to unions, they are about one third of the staff that would be needed."

www.forbes.com/sites/irenedominioni/2020/06/28/protests-in-italy-over-strategy-to-reopen-schools-in-september/

"Italy spends a lot less on education than almost every other western country. Spending per student (from primary school to university) equates to $8,966 per annum, compared to $11,028 in the UK and $11,502 in Sweden.The under-investment is so serious that in December 2019, the education minister, Lorenzo Fioramonti, resigned in protest."

Interesting. My US school district spends $12k per year per student, and is doing everything that Italy appears to be doing, which apparently the UK can't do because of lack of funding.

Teachers self-evidently can't teach face to face AND remotely so the only real option is to record lessons for kids to listen to at home.

I'll be interested to see how this works out - our teachers are planning to do this.

Yeah, let’s traumatise our kids even more. Good call...

Interesting. My US school district spends $12k per year per student, and is doing everything that Italy appears to be doing, which apparently the UK can't do because of lack of funding.

US school districts saved money during lockdown - apparently we didn't (according to teachers on this forum);

"The Princeton Public Schools [community school district] saved about $1 million for the 2019-20 school year due to COVID-19.Remote instruction meant the district did not need to spend as much on transportation, substitute teachers, supplies, and other items."

planetprinceton.com/2020/06/23/princeton-public-schools-saved-about-1-million-due-to-covid-19-but-some-board-members-say-they-found-out-too-late/

"Jersey City schools to use cash saved during COVID-19 shutdown to reduce next year’s tax increase."

"realistically there is going to be money saved while schools are closed."
“You have to think about the supplies, the field trips…over time these are payments that we don’t have...substitute teachers….all those costs will not be occurring,”

www.nj.com/hudson/2020/03/jersey-city-schools-to-use-cash-saved-during-covid-19-shutdown-to-reduce-next-years-tax-increase.html

Those “protests“ were two months ago and were a small part of the bigger picture (I have family in Italy).

Virtually nothing in the Forbes article is true.
Schools didn't open after lockdown finished because there was less than a month of school to go and that included a couple of bank holidays.
Schools have always used other buildings when they need space, nothing to do with Covid, although yes, taking over huge empty buildings is being proposed on an as/when basis.
Nothing has been decided yet about mask wearing in class
Students will definitely not be in mixed grade groups.
Nothing specific has been said about online lessons other than the possibility, again as and when necessary, of kids doing maybe 4 days in school and 2 online, or one week in one week out etc etc.

Isn’t there some extra funding through www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-catch-up-premium ?

@notevenat20

Isn’t there some extra funding through www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-catch-up-premium ?

This is a tiny amount and not targeted.

This is what the government does, says 'xx million' which people then think is lots, but it actually buys sod all once divided between school or pupils.

We need to understand how much a billionbuys (not much).