Why can’t we do what Italy are doing?

[CKBJ]

In Italy schools are opening, the new term is starting. Teachers wearing face masks and visors, pupils wear masks, socially distanced in class at 1m and pupils who live with vulnerable adult(s) can have lessons remotely.

We basically have had similar cases levels of Covid as Italy albeit our hospitals weren’t over run but our death rate is higher. Surely our government could have implemented similar measures to Italy for September and possibly relaxed some of them as the term progresses rather than basically start as normal and hope for the best?

@Didkdt several other posters have suggested live streaming from classrooms. Don’t let that get in the way of your desire to have a go though.

How does a school without fibre internet and the IT hardware to do so, stream lessons?

..and what does the child watch it on, if they don't have decent internet?

Of course we could have been putting in FTTP etc in the last 5 months but didn't.

There are a lot of good ideas on this thread-use of supply and vulnerable teachers for remote learning where possible. Yeah, it's not ideal and a 'relationship' will have to be established but that's the same whenever kids start with a new teacher (and vice versa)-you get to know them!

I highly doubt Italy has large classrooms but are likely implementing social distancing where it can.

I don't get why the govt isn't insisting children (especially older primary and secondary level) and teachers wear masks/visors in British schools as social distancing is nigh impossible (barring exemptions and along with frequent handwashing/gelling.) Again, not ideal and not foolproof.

In Chat, there is a thread about a teacher who has had a lung transplant, essentially having to give up her career, because she has been told by her consultant not to return to work in September due to the risk of exposure. I daresay we will lose a lot of vulnerable teachers unless we utilise them in other capacities such as remote learning.

@Bishybarnybee
The thing that people who don't work in schools don't get, is that teaching is relational. To be effective, you need to know the children and establish an effective learning relationship with them. Supply teachers will really struggle to do that remotely.

So? Eventually they’ll hit their stride and build relationships with the children and parents remotely, especially if they’re good teachers and are supported by the school . We can’t just avoid trying it because it’s hard.

Agree OP.

@thecatsatonthewall you answered your own question I see. :) If the government mandated every school be brought current with better connections, it could likely be done within 2 — 4 weeks. Again, think of it as a massive jobs program. They would just have to pay for it and we all know what that’s like.

In terms of devices for children, that could also be bought in bulk and distributed within a month as well. There are probably even some schools that already have equipment but aren’t actually distributing them to students either.

@Lifeisabeach09

In Chat, there is a thread about a teacher who has had a lung transplant, essentially having to give up her career, because she has been told by her consultant not to return to work in September due to the risk of exposure. I daresay we will lose a lot of vulnerable teachers unless we utilise them in other capacities such as remote learning.

I saw that thread and was thinking the same thing. Imagine losing multiple generations or cohorts of teachers simply because the government or the public refuse to get creative around problem solving for children’s education. It's ridiculous and sad.

@Bishybarnybee

Regarding the question about who will teach the remote kids — there’s a whole bank of supply teachers who likely need work as well and who are qualified

Instead of looking at this as a giant clusterfuck and complaining, you could see it as a massive job/work program to get thousands of people working again

Or you can just keep complaining, hand wringing and “yeah but”-ing your way to a ruined educational system.

The thing that people who don't work in schools don't get, is that teaching is relational. To be effective, you need to know the children and establish an effective learning relationship with them. Supply teachers will really struggle to do that remotely.

The reason private schools have been better at remote learning is partly that their families have the technology, partly that their families value education and want to get their money's worth, so there is an effective school-home alliance to get the child to engage, and partly that smaller classes are much more manageable remotely.

The "yeah butting" is because people who don't work in schools think it's easy for the ones that do. Most schools and teachers are working flat out to try to come up with solutions but it's just not that easy.

I do think as well that the supply bank has decreased, as many of those teachers have gone back into contracted roles for job security, in case of second lockdown etc. My husband said that the two teaching roles advertised at his school attracted a lot of very experienced applicants - including many who'd been doing supply roles for flexibility but felt it safer to have a fixed job this academic year.

[quote PurpleDaisies]@Didkdt several other posters have suggested live streaming from classrooms. Don’t let that get in the way of your desire to have a go though. [/quote]
Live streaming from classrooms is a crazy idea, it would be such a poor learning experience that it would really just be paying lip service to "making education accessible to the vulnerable".

What I'm wondering is, why aren't we tapping into what arrangements are already in place in remote locations, i.e. Hebrides and so on? There must be systems in place there that are proven to work, surely?

I think the government fear that many parents won't support some of the measures and will just refuse to send kids back to school. Once they're through the school doors it will be easier to increase measures more gradually.

I think every country will be looking at what others are doing/ implementing regarding COVID etc before making decisions, but obviously schools/ education are part of a whole system so you can't completely replicate a way of doing something. I'm here in Italy with my primary & secondary children. Some things have gone ok in my area(full teaching and on line lessons throughout our lockdown- all children without devices were lent from school). However let's say that the education system is more geared up to it- kids are used t sitting alone, facing the teacher/ listening and working/ hardly any group work- every child has 20+ textbooks with all relevant info even in primary. I know kids miss out on a lot of things in school here and I would prefer more of a uk approach ( no group work as a prime example) but their system works well for on line lessons.

Just from my experience, within the schools I have worked and my kids', children will follow the rules regarding masks and SD within schools if asked. It seems strange because as a country Italians are often not seen as rule abiding, but in school the children are kept in line let's say much more than in the uk. They have much less freedom, and I consider this a negative aspect of the system here, but when it comes to COVID it's probably easier to implement SD and new rules☹️

OP I think it's a good idea, and gives more options to some teachers/parents/pupils.

I can't see why every school has to provide this just for their own pupils either.
Surely pupils can be taught remotely by teachers from other schools , so actually you don't really need that many teachers to cover the curriculum and give national coverage.

I agree that remote learning could be done by fewer teachers. It's not ideal, obviously, but neither is sending kids home for a fortnight with only worksheets to do, or having teachers working day and night to teach their own classes plus prepare video lessons.

Obviously you need the pupils to be a bit self-motivated to get the most benefits, and you need to organise some kind of marking system (again, maybe teachers who are shielding could be involved), plus you need to ensure that all children have access to it when they need it, but it's worth considering.

There seems to be a small subset of teachers on here who just say "no, absolutely not" to anything new, but in real-life all the teachers I know are willing to give most things a try.

It all needs government backup and funding, though, which seems to be lacking.

Interesting to read everyone’s thoughts, opinions and experiences. I agree we are in UK not Italy, but if another country potentially has a better idea/solution I think we should look to it and learn. This surely is a common approach to other aspects in life.

Regarding extra classroom space, extra local buildings could have been used. Oasis academy are hiring church halls and office space. A recruitment drive on people who have left the profession could have occurred a bit like NHS to teach extra classes. Sports clubs,forest schools, artists, musicians etc could have been encouraged as well, offering a diverse curriculum.

Every child who needs online access should have been provided with a laptop and a dongle for Internet access.

The government seems to have failed to even consider if any are viable options.

@PurpleDaisies you quoted me and I hadn't suggested that I suggested clinically vulnerable teachers could teach the shielded remotely

Sports clubs,forest schools, artists, musicians etc could have been encouraged as well, offering a diverse curriculum.

It would be lovely if this could happen but in reality there will barely be any music provision due to the schools not wanting extra people (peri tutors) coming in, the government restrictions on singing and playing wind and brass instruments. Things have to be thought through.

Pulling in retired teachers - I think it is slightly different to NHS staff because a lot of those returning knew that it was unlikely to be more than 3 months "peak" pandemic. But for teachers it would most likely be for a full year. Do that many retired teachers want to go back into a stressful job, in stressful circumstances, for a whole school year? How would it affect their pension schemes? I think there would need to be a strong financial incentive...

And, for all that we can say "alternative buildings could be used", I'd be willing to bet that a lot of parents would baulk at the idea of their kids being sent to a random office block or a musty church hall for the entire year, if the push came to the shove.

I'm not meaning to be unrelentingly negative - and for sure there are simple things that could work well, like, I don't personally see why there shouldn't be masks in corridors if it makes a difference. But I find it irritating when people who are not teachers get "angry" because schools aren't doing this or that - when in fact, this or that would be against the government guidelines / prohibited by child protection laws / completely impractical.

I'm not meaning to be unrelentingly negative this did make me laugh a little because it had been very negative!

I think if we had a government that cared, we could have done an awful lot.

But they don't want to spend an extra penny.

The government do and have spent lots of money. But schools aren't their friends are they?

Our schools are planning similar to the Italian schools, and our Covid rates are similar to the UK in my US state.

They will be streaming lessons from the classroom for the cohort that are home (they are allowing half the students to come into school at a time).

Teachers who can't come into school for health reasons will teach the students who choose online-only education.

Laptops have been provided to all students and teachers, and wifi hotspots or free internet to those who don't have internet already.

Masks being worn by everyone who can wear them.

The idea is that schools need to be kept as safe as possible, but also that they need a backup plan in place for if/when there are Covid cases in school that result in closure.

If these plans were not in place, I suspect most people would just not send their kids back to school.

For an example of what can happen when you do allow a lot of people to congregate without masking, there was a 65-person wedding reception in a very rural part of my state a few weeks ago.

So far nearly 80 people have been infected as a result, one person (who did not go to the wedding) has died, and Covid has got into a nursing home resulting in 6 infections there, and into a county jail resulting in 18 infections there. People infected have ranged from age 4 to 90.

That's the sort of thing we're trying to avoid.

One of the most awful things this government is doing is insisting on 'all kids in school' - and fines / losing places if not - because 'kids aren't affected' ignoring that they WILL be affected if they bring it home to their very vulnerable parents who become very ill or die as a result.

They are not allowing people to make their own risk assessments, and they've ended shielding.

Private schools, where MP kids are, can do SD.

The government has flat out refused to give approval to state schools using village halls or other community space (even spaces they ALREADY use for things like school plays and even when these spaces have been offered for free) which could allow for SD classes. Why?

It's looking increasingly 'eugenics'-y to be honest. It's not like they don't have the money - plenty has been found for poor quality, unfulfilled PPE contracts /test and trace with their mates companies.