Would you be willing to be put under house arrest in order to save lives?

[Treesofwood]

Just that really. Would you be willing to go to prison to save lives? Would you be willing to give up your children's right to an education to save lives? This whole situation brings up many philosophical questions for me, and my theoretical response is not actually the sane as my response when faced with the reality.

@midgebabe

I am not prepared to trade lives for jobs

It seems to me that quite a few people are prepared to trade other people's lives for their jobs. I just wanted to see how they would feel if we took the same attitude to jobs as they were to lives. And it seems unpopular...who would have guessed!

The selfishness of people never fails t9 surprise me.

I believe, and history shows it to be true, that the way to minimise the loss of jobs and long term unemployment is to minimise the risk to life

Because otherwise, up to a third of the population, the vulnerable and the wealthy, won't be participating in your "normal" society until the problem has been made safe

So which sectors should stay at home then? Would you expect to be able to order goods online? Or should all factories and delivery drivers stay at home this time? Would you expect electricity? Internet TV? Or should all the workers that maintain these services stay at home? Would you expect to be able to import food items? Or should we only live on what we can produce in U.K. and close our borders?

I assume you would still expect emergency services? What about routine healthcare? Or should these workers all stay at home?

Saying we should all stay at home to protect lives is ridiculous if we want a nice comfy life to go with it.

@midgebabe it's not as simple as "lives for jobs." Jobs ARE lives. If I lose my job, I lose my home, which is the roof over DS's head. No, I'm not prepared to do that if I can avoid it.

I don’t really think many people think “I don’t care if people die as long as I keep my job”. It doesn’t work like that anyway. I think more that some people may wonder whether the large scale recession is worth it when those largely at risk were in their 80s and 90s anyway.

It's not trading lives for jobs though is it? It's a balancing act. Mass unemployment, which is where we are well on the road to, costs the country financially and socially. We need people earning money, firstly for their personal wellbeing, unemployment being a massive trigger for ill health, mental and physical, and secondly to pay tax to fund public services.

It's not a balancing act that I'd want to be responsible for making the decisions on, that's for sure.

@isabellerossignol

It's not trading lives for jobs though is it? It's a balancing act. Mass unemployment, which is where we are well on the road to, costs the country financially and socially. We need people earning money, firstly for their personal wellbeing, unemployment being a massive trigger for ill health, mental and physical, and secondly to pay tax to fund public services.

It's not a balancing act that I'd want to be responsible for making the decisions on, that's for sure.

Mass unemployment also causes long term serious and physical health problems.

@midgebabe with all the recent data and statistics the mortality rate is no where near 1%. In July in Leicester over 1300 people were confirmed as having covid. Only 7 needed hospital treatment. Apparently a younger demographic and lots of asymptomatic people but doesn't change the fact that the stats will not be the same with all the extra confirmed tests.

I am not prepared to trade lives for jobs

This statement really does indicate a depressing level of naivety and ignorance.

You do realise that without income, people's lives ARE at risk? thousands have already been pushed into poverty due to the pandemic.
Without jobs there are no taxes, without taxes there IS NO NHS and more people will die. How can you not see this?- its so so obvious.

Anyway, I was asking more theoretically. We could save lives by all teens having a curfew, or only being allowed to drive for work purposes, or preventing children from mixing with peers too closely. Flu every year kills many people, traffic incidents also, fights and drunken incidents at night. How much of your rights would you give up for others?

The selfishness of people never fails t9 surprise me.

Who picks up the pieces after families who lose their income, can’t pay rent/mortgage and become homeless? You guessed it.

With the recession heading our way, it might be a decade before some people get back on their feet. Think of what 10 years of poverty and insecure living can do to a generation of children.

So yes you’ll prioritise your own. You have to.

No

Without jobs there are no taxes, without taxes there IS NO NHS and more people will die. How can you not see this?- its so so obvious.

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall over this one. People haven’t got the first idea how their own world works. All those public services. All those public sector salaries. They don’t just fucking materialise.

Or should we ask the NHS consultants if they’re prepared to work for free?

@Treesofwood

Anyway, I was asking more theoretically. We could save lives by all teens having a curfew, or only being allowed to drive for work purposes, or preventing children from mixing with peers too closely. Flu every year kills many people, traffic incidents also, fights and drunken incidents at night. How much of your rights would you give up for others?

It's an interesting question.

Generally speaking across the globe there are very few rights we give up purely for the benefit of others.

I'm not sure paying tax counts/donating to charity counts.

In fact I can't think of any example off the top of my head!

Exactly. Netflix, alcohol and chocolate all essential apparently

Going to school not so much.

Strange world we live in.

Ain’t that the truth

I was/am willing to do it but for a limited period of time. I’m not so sure I’ll be willing to do it again, or carry on like this past a year. I’ve followed all the rules strictly as I thought it was important but if I’m thinking of giving up soon I’m sure loads of others are too. So I think yes to the question but for a defined short period of time.

This is happening in NZ where people are taken to “facilities” against their will. It’s chilling.

And no, I would not be willing to do so. Enough is enough.

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall over this one. People haven’t got the first idea how their own world works. All those public services. All those public sector salaries. They don’t just fucking materialise

I know right? me too. Where do people imagine the money comes from for public services like fire, ambulance, police? the NHS, or for disability benefits or pensions? do they imagine the money just floats down out of the sky? or grows on a mythical money tree? You only have to look at countries with extreme poverty to notice those things dont exist there so why on earth would they exist here if hardly anyone is paying taxes for them?

I wish people would stop being so blind about this and realise that when people talk about "the economy" we are NOT fcking talking about rich bankers and making the rich even richer. The rich bankers will be absolutely fine, no matter what happens to the rest of us. The economy is where all those services bloody come from in the first place!

@midgebabe

I am not prepared to trade lives for jobs

It seems to me that quite a few people are prepared to trade other people's lives for their jobs. I just wanted to see how they would feel if we took the same attitude to jobs as they were to lives. And it seems unpopular...who would have guessed!

The selfishness of people never fails t9 surprise me.

I believe, and history shows it to be true, that the way to minimise the loss of jobs and long term unemployment is to minimise the risk to life

Because otherwise, up to a third of the population, the vulnerable and the wealthy, won't be participating in your "normal" society until the problem has been made safe

And what about all the lives that might be lost because of socieconomic deprivation if we shut society down again? How about all the missed cancer diagnoses? The suicide rates? The increase in domestic violence? The list is endless.

Or do only covid deaths matter?

We have to find a middle ground where society/the economy is reopens as much as possible, with relevant and effective safety measures (social distancing, large amount of testing, isolation of positive cases) in place, where possible and practical.

@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter

I feel like banging my head against a brick wall over this one. People haven’t got the first idea how their own world works. All those public services. All those public sector salaries. They don’t just fucking materialise

I know right? me too. Where do people imagine the money comes from for public services like fire, ambulance, police? the NHS, or for disability benefits or pensions? do they imagine the money just floats down out of the sky? or grows on a mythical money tree? You only have to look at countries with extreme poverty to notice those things dont exist there so why on earth would they exist here if hardly anyone is paying taxes for them?

I wish people would stop being so blind about this and realise that when people talk about "the economy" we are NOT fcking talking about rich bankers and making the rich even richer. The rich bankers will be absolutely fine, no matter what happens to the rest of us. The economy is where all those services bloody come from in the first place!

The furlough scheme plus teachers having been home on full pay mean that yes. A large percentage of people really don't get it.

It's only when your own household income stops that you are forced to wonder why.

Or do only covid deaths matter?

Apparently so.

And these Covid patients apparently to be cared for by doctors and nurses willing to devote themselves for free.

I’m not sure how anyone eats, but hey ho, you can’t have everything.

@TheKeatingFive

The selfishness of people never fails t9 surprise me.

Who picks up the pieces after families who lose their income, can’t pay rent/mortgage and become homeless? You guessed it.

With the recession heading our way, it might be a decade before some people get back on their feet. Think of what 10 years of poverty and insecure living can do to a generation of children.

So yes you’ll prioritise your own. You have to.

Yes - it's interesting that selfishness apparently only works one way

It seems to me that quite a few people are prepared to trade other people's lives for their jobs.

I most certainly am prepared to do that. If it comes down to keeping a roof over my family's head and food on the table, then I'm afraid other people's lives are not a consideration for me.

I agree with you op. This has definitely raised philosophical questions for me. But then I tend to question absolutely everything.

I've said this before, I've had elderly relatives die because they caught a virus, No one cared a few years ago how or where they caught it from. It was just one of those things.

You risk lives every time you go out and do anything.

We all accepted the lockdown because there was a new virus that we knew nothing about which threatened to overwhelm our health service, meaning people would have had to be turned away from hospital. Actually this didn't happen but what did happen is a huge fuck up whereby people died unnecessarily because they didn't access hospital treatment.

The idea now by some people that we must continue to keep everything closed and curtail the things that make life worth living long term in order to save every life horrifies me.

I've also seen posts along the lines of 'if you go to the pub you should be happy to give up your hospital bed if you get ill'. That attitude horrifies me too, and I say that as someone who hasn't been near a pub.

People are entitled to enjoy their lives within the law of the land they live in.

It's very easy to pat yourself on the back for being "altruistic" when it's at little personal cost.

I sincerely hope that everyone commenting that they'd be willing to stay locked away however long it takes to 'save lives' have never driven a car. Hypocrites! Staying at home suits you, just face it. You are doing absolutely nothing to 'save lives' by staying at home doing sweet FA. If you wanted to actually help people, you'd get off your arses and go out and actually do something meaningful surely!

Covid hysterics like @midgebabe find it easy to state those idiotic platitudes like “lives over jobs” because they are rather simple, only interested in covid deaths and don’t seem to understand that losses of jobs and economic turmoil have a direct impact on deaths and suffering.

For the unthinking, its easy to utter such simplistic platitudes without understanding the bigger picture.