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Would you be willing to be put under house arrest in order to save lives?

624 replies

Treesofwood · 19/08/2020 23:50

Just that really. Would you be willing to go to prison to save lives? Would you be willing to give up your children's right to an education to save lives? This whole situation brings up many philosophical questions for me, and my theoretical response is not actually the sane as my response when faced with the reality.

OP posts:
Pertella · 21/08/2020 09:01

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Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:05

@Treesofwood

Hearhooves. They are managing. Better than us. People still have and continued to have access to health care for other issues than covid. Children continued to receive an education. And the economy hasn't crashed. They don't enforce masks, or lockdowns. I'm interested to know what you have done in the past to protect the vulnerable.
But it's like comparing apples and pears.

The land mass is many times greater than ours with a population many times smaller

They closed schools to certain age groups and looking at primary schools there they have a set up we can only dream of - children are socially distanced, excellent facilities with airy modern buildings, lots of outside education, great hand washing facilities

Their GDP has dropped by the same amount as other countries - they didn't need to impose lockdown, their citizens did it themselves, you know like we were asked to do but didn't until we were made to do it.

Research how their schools are managing and then compare it with our schools system.

As for what I have done for the vulnerable - I have volunteered with a charity, I have spent twenty years volunteering in schools, we donate to three different charities every month, my husband has volunteered with a youth organisation for many years.We aren't a wealthy family. We've not had a holiday for four years, our car is fifteen years old, we live in a tiny terraced house - we aren't rolling in money but we still look outside of our family to support as much as we can.

PhilCornwall1 · 21/08/2020 09:06

No one is more important than anyone else. We should be looking out for each other and protecting the vulnerable.

That's your opinion, but how can people you don't know, neighbours, work colleagues, etc. be just as important and require just as much consideration as your family?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:06

liar

Where are the explanations then?

Pertella · 21/08/2020 09:08

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Pertella · 21/08/2020 09:09

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Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:09

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I don’t think anyone is advocating letting the virus rip through uncontrollably.

I think that’s the bit you’re being pulled up on.

There’s no one saying it should just be let run riot.

I think what’s being said is there is a necessary middle ground between full lockdown and letting the virus run riot.

TheKeatingFive · 21/08/2020 09:10

Hearhoovesthinkzebras has been constructing straw man arguments on here since March. There’s no point in engaging with her.

Pertella · 21/08/2020 09:12

@TheKeatingFive

Hearhoovesthinkzebras has been constructing straw man arguments on here since March. There’s no point in engaging with her.
Oh, they've been at it since long before then!

The other boards are getting a break from it though so every cloud...

TheKeatingFive · 21/08/2020 09:15

The other boards are getting a break from it though so every cloud

I didn’t know that. I thought she was entirely Covid focussed!

Lweji · 21/08/2020 09:15

@AllWashedOut

We go back to normal, infections rise...and so what? Death rates have not risen in line with the second waves, largely because the group infected are younger.

What is the evidence that COVID is worse for 0-50 age group than the flu? I'd be interested to see the data.

Death rates are also better because doctors understand the disease better and more cases are being detected, so the death rates seem better now than at first. In countries with good test and tracing from the start, and that didn't let numbers rise uncontrollably, have always had lower death rates.

It's worse in terms of longer time damage to the affected organs. Death is not the only parameter.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:17

@AllWashedOut

We go back to normal, infections rise...and so what? Death rates have not risen in line with the second waves, largely because the group infected are younger.

What is the evidence that COVID is worse for 0-50 age group than the flu? I'd be interested to see the data.

Worse in what way though?

Number of deaths?
Number of people requiring hospital care?
Number of people left with long term serious health conditions?

What are you thinking of when you compare Covid with the flu?

Also, people saying it can run through the younger population with no effect on hospital admissions or death rates - how do you keep it only within the younger, healthy population? How do you stop it spreading to older or vulnerable people which will then affect hospitals and will mean hospitals can't look after you or your family if they get ill with a non Covid condition.

The elderly will still die and hospitals will again stop family from being there because the situation we had in March will happen. Hospitals in the US are getting overwhelmed and the numbers of young people in hospital are rising.

How much do you all really know about this illness, it's effects etc? What are your qualifications in epidemiology, virology, public health to be able to do confidently predict this?

Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:18

What are your qualifications in epidemiology, virology, public health to be able to do confidently predict this?

What are yours? Recent and up to date, not as a nurse 10 or 20 years ago please.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:22

[quote Noneformethanks]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras I don’t think anyone is advocating letting the virus rip through uncontrollably.

I think that’s the bit you’re being pulled up on.

There’s no one saying it should just be let run riot.

I think what’s being said is there is a necessary middle ground between full lockdown and letting the virus run riot.[/quote]
But what is that middle ground?

People are saying they refuse to sacrifice any more to protect the vulnerable (so 20 million people) and are only concerned with their own family. They want schools open and back to normal, and from the sounds of it all other businesses open and normal service resumed. How does that provide any room to control the spread?

Even just opening schools with no SD, no attempt to stop infection will increase occurrence in society. Their arguments don't stack up. Society is a series of inter connected individuals. Each person and their actions affect society in some way.

Underhisi · 21/08/2020 09:22

"I think it's sad to read how many members of MN put themselves and their families so far above the rest of society. No one is more important than anyone else. We should be looking out for each other and protecting the vulnerable.

One day it may be you and yours."

There is more than one sort of vulnerable. Some other sorts of vulnerable have had an horrendous time during lockdown - not receiving services and support, being banned from seeing their families, the guidance rules of lockdown making them very distressed. Their needs need considering too.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:23

@Noneformethanks

What are your qualifications in epidemiology, virology, public health to be able to do confidently predict this?

What are yours? Recent and up to date, not as a nurse 10 or 20 years ago please.

I'm not pretending to have any qualifications which is why I'm going with what the experts in those fields are saying, not posters on MN.
Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:23

I don’t think anyone has suggested “normal service resumed”.

Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:25

@Underhisi

"I think it's sad to read how many members of MN put themselves and their families so far above the rest of society. No one is more important than anyone else. We should be looking out for each other and protecting the vulnerable.

One day it may be you and yours."

There is more than one sort of vulnerable. Some other sorts of vulnerable have had an horrendous time during lockdown - not receiving services and support, being banned from seeing their families, the guidance rules of lockdown making them very distressed. Their needs need considering too.

Thank you.

I’m clinically vulnerable (not extremely so not shielded) and I’ve had all my routine appointments cancelled.

They’re only just restarting.

If I don’t get help from the CMHT I’m likely to crash. Soon.

I need the support.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:28

@Noneformethanks

I don’t think anyone has suggested “normal service resumed”.
Then what are they suggesting? Perhaps they could actually describe what they want to happen rather than launch personal attacks against me?

What do people mean when they say they want what's best for their family now? What does that look like?

Schools fully open with no Covid precautions?

Leisure activities fully open with no precautions?

Travel abroad with no precautions?

What do they want that they don't have now, in the name of protecting the vulnerable?

Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:29

I don’t know. Perhaps you should start A thread to discuss that?

And you should, of course, report any personal attacks to mumsnet.

Lweji · 21/08/2020 09:30

Answering as someone with actual qualifications, the correct answer is somewhere in the middle. Wink

The ship has sailed in terms of not having the virus around.

In most countries, and certainly in Europe, where borders are open, and people movement is important, we have to learn to manage the virus through PPE and some social distancing. For people infected or with known contacts, 2-3 weeks of isolation is the least you can do to prevent your family and friends from catching it and getting affected (it is a lottery in terms of outcome). Otherwise, be as careful as possible, but live your life as normal as possible. (I am)

Countries like NZ can still control introduction, but it will require constant vigilance.
In that sense, yes, I'd endure staying isolated for a couple of weeks and not have deaths on my conscience.
China basically has two options: tough control or loss of control, due to their population density and dynamics.

Fingers crossed for a reasonably effective vaccine.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 21/08/2020 09:32

@Noneformethanks

I don’t know. Perhaps you should start A thread to discuss that?

And you should, of course, report any personal attacks to mumsnet.

Well the personal attacks are right there for everyone to see. Anyone can report them.
Jrobhatch29 · 21/08/2020 09:33

Where are you getting "with no precautions" from? We are all taking precautions. We are doing what is being asked so we can keep society going and keep out jobs - hand washing, social distancing, masks etc. What we don't want is to be locked down again, and put our families at risk of other things to save others! As for schools, we don't make the decisions on schools. So if going back to school means no precautions then I still think my kids need to go. That isn't my fault.

Noneformethanks · 21/08/2020 09:35

So you’d rather complain about them and not do anything bout it like report?

I suppose that’s me victim blaming you as well.

Pertella · 21/08/2020 09:39

Eternal martyr syndrome