We've saved a lot of lives

[Nellodee]

I don't really know how to write this, I don't want it to come across as patronising. I was just struck by how hard this has been for everyone and how many changes we have made, for such a long time. How many sacrifices, how many decisions that were not for our benefit, but for the benefit of our society. It's been a massive concerted effort. We've all gone through a lot of hardships, for people we don't even know. We've saved a lot of lives.

It does sound patronising, I didn't mean it to, but it felt like something I hadn't really thought of in that way, how ... I can't find the right word... virtuous? good? kind? ... we've all been. I know we've all bickered about statistics, and politics, but we've all done it, changed our lives to protect the old and vulnerable. Whether or not you think we did the right thing, we all did it for the right reasons.

My father in law died on 25th June due to a bowel package which was missed because his GP wouldn't see him in person because of Covid. My husband has now lost 2 parents in 2 years, and my children have lost their grandparents. But he didn't get coronavirus...

Bowel blockage*

Well today we were at the funeral of a family member who died of cancer die to being refused treatment because of covid, yet I don't know a single person who has been hospitalised, or even tested positive in this area. Obviously there have been people, bit this has made me question everything.

We’ve ruined a lot of lives would be more accurate

Absolutely this and It's a fucking disgrace.

My colleague died of covid, previously fairly well but was asthmatic. Another colleague is still very debilitated although didn't require intubation. It's an awful virus, lives would be lost whatever we did.

I lost my grandmother and auntie to the virus. My good friend who is usually healthy and in her 30s has been very ill for months. Dh lost his father. All to the virus.

All would have lived if we’d locked down sooner.

I lost another friend to suicide last week and I think the lengthy lockdown contributed.

If we’d locked down two weeks sooner we’d have saved lives of those with the virus and those affected by lockdown.

Because a quicker lockdown would have been shorter and less of a shock to us all. There’d have been less cases so it would have been under control again far more quickly.

Perhaps we should not be arguing about this and whether we should have locked down. Lives would have been lost both ways in many ways.

Perhaps we should be united and realise the problem is that we didn’t lock down sooner because our government wasted time pursuing herd immunity.

Yes cases might have popped up again but again we could have eradicated them with a swift short measure.

To everyone who had lost someone for any reason at this time. I’m so sorry. My thoughts are with you.

It is indisputable than more people would have died of Covid-19 if we hadnt locked down - because there are better treatments available now.

As for the rest - if a large part of the workforce is either dead or sick just who would have been treating cancer patients? And where could they have put the people who were fighting for breath and needed oxygen to survive? Would you have left them to die in the street? The NHS was never just a Covid service - it still treated emergencies, it still delivered babies, it even did some elective work although I doubt there was much of that in the hotspots. Some people got cancer treatment, some got diagnosed - but the NHS is under-resourced and we all paid the price for that.

France was threatening not to let lorries across the channel - how many people would have starved when the shelves had even less food.

The bodies would have piling up too, because we didnt have enough morgue capacity and no-one would be keen to handle the bodies. And the rubbish wouldnt be collected as often so maybe there would have been disease from that too.

On the plus side there would still have been electricity, apparently, those systems can cope. So you could still have been on mumsnet complaining when your breathing became affected.

Lockdown should have come sooner, then we could have come out of it sooner. Blame a dithering government. Parts of the economy could have been released sooner - never a logical reason to keep garden centres or outdoor attractions shut as long as they did. Blame an incompetent government. Yes we will all pay for years, even those who didnt vote for these idiots.

Still 65k plus excess deaths and one of the highest death rates per capita in the world but haven't we done soooooo well?

We had to shut down the NHS in order to prevent the govt from being embarrassed by seeing it overwhelmed, that is the real scandal, it has caused so many unnecessary non CV deaths.

CV has or should have, shown us all what piss poor public services we have and how Govt is about PR and not what is best for us all.
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@alreadytaken I am in agreement with absolutely everything you said.

@thecatsatonthewall

Still 65k plus excess deaths and one of the highest death rates per capita in the world but haven't we done soooooo well?

We had to shut down the NHS in order to prevent the govt from being embarrassed by seeing it overwhelmed, that is the real scandal, it has caused so many unnecessary non CV deaths.

CV has or should have, shown us all what piss poor public services we have and how Govt is about PR and not what is best for us all.
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All this.

@FluffyKittensinabasket

And how many more NHS patients will die from lack of treatment?

And how can it possibly be reasonable to think that the NHS would have treated more non-Covid patients had we just let Covid rip through?

@alreadytaken

Excellent post.

Well today we were at the funeral of a family member who died of cancer die to being refused treatment because of covid, yet I don't know a single person who has been hospitalised, or even tested positive in this area. Obviously there have been people, bit this has made me question everything.

I’m sorry to hear your loss. In hindsight, I think the NHS response in some parts of the country was probably excessive, in particular the south-west where cases were relatively low. However, I think this only happened because we let Covid get out of control so we had to prepare for the worst. In the event, it was clearly very bad in many places, but we averted a catastrophe of Bergamo proportions. However, had we acted more decisively earlier, we could have taken a more measured approach that would have lessened the response needed by the NHS.

Had those who argued against treating Covid as anything more than the flu held sway, and our national response based on that, I can’t see how there wouldn’t have been many thousands more tragic deaths like your relative’s as the NHS became totally swamped.

Notwithstanding that some of the assumptions used were questionable (which is easy to say five months on), the 500,000 deaths had we continued on the path we were on seems more than reasonable given we had 60,000 excess deaths and 7% Covid antibody levels nationally, and all that with the NHS being able to cope - just.

That’s the 500,000+ deaths forecast by Ian Ferguson’s model, which some Covid minimisers see fit to ridicule, despite the actual Covid death figures and Covid infections levels being pretty consistent with it.

The U.K. deaths are so high as government policy sent the disease to those most vulnerable - the 25,000 elderly patients discharged from hospital into care homes without being tested. That is shocking and arguably criminal. Those in care homes were frail and vulnerable to any disease - the average care home resident has a life expectancy of 1 year and now many more are dying from the flu.

One cannot extrapolate from the tragedy in care homes a death rate for the population. For anyone under 40, the risk is minimal - close to zero even if they have underlying conditions. It rises sharply after 60.

This is not a reason to deny children an education or to stop cancer treatment or most other health treatment. That is criminal.

For anyone under 40, the risk is minimal - close to zero even if they have underlying conditions. It rises sharply after 60

This is not a reason to deny children an education or to stop cancer treatment or most other health treatment

These two statements are at odds with each other, many teachers are over 40, how do we protect them from CV ? if they don't teach, then the education system will fail.

Or maybe teacher deaths and illness are just part and parcel of being a teacher?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/health-53300784

@thecatsatonthewall really? Why can’t I read a thread on here without someone going on about teachers? It’s getting a little boring now.

That’s the 500,000+ deaths forecast by Ian Ferguson’s model, which some Covid minimisers see fit to ridicule, despite the actual Covid death figures and Covid infections levels being pretty consistent with it.

Agree with this. The situation would have been far worse without lockdown, not least because of the huge amount of people who would have caught covid19 in a very short space of time. All the services would have become overwhelmed very quickly. This would include the police and social services

We all know that some lives have been saved because of lockdown, equally we know some people have died because of and in spite off lockdown. There is no point arguing the same points time after time.

The government could have done things differently, they probably should have put us into lockdown sooner, they should have used the Nightingale hospitals for what they were supposed to be used for and kept 'normal' hospitals for 'normal' treatments. Instead they have made Covid so much worse by flit flopping around, doing more U turns so it look like they were going around in circles. They have never got ahead of this pandemic they have reacted after the fact on everything.

@Eyewhisker

Clearly far too many people died in care homes due to the hospital discharge policy, but it remains the case that most deaths were not from care homes, and there would certainly have been some care home Covid deaths even with a much better discharge policy.

The thing that would have likely made care homes even more deadly is if we had continued with a “Covid’s just the flu!” attitude through March and into April.... With the lack of PPE at that point, it would have been impossible to have kept Covid out of the homes, as care staff would inevitably have brought it in to virtually all homes rather than only a proportion of them, and there would have been no way of mitigating the impact with all parts of the system overwhelmed.

Finally, the average stay in care homes is more like two years (nursing care is one year) and “flu” deaths are largely pneumonia-deaths caused by microbes naturally resident in many of us for much of the time but which can cause illness and death in those who are very weak, not influenza.

What kind of lives are we going to have though? A recession, very high unemployment rates, an NHS and public services that barely function, automation and offshoring of jobs etc.

Many people will be alive but with a very poor quality of life. The NHS will take years to catch up apparently if they don’t dismantle it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/10/nhs-hospital-waiting-lists-could-hit-10-million-in-england-this-year

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/some-hospital-specialties-may-take-two-years-to-clear-referral-backlog/20041072.article

[quote FluffyKittensinabasket]What kind of lives are we going to have though? A recession, very high unemployment rates, an NHS and public services that barely function, automation and offshoring of jobs etc.

Many people will be alive but with a very poor quality of life. The NHS will take years to catch up apparently if they don’t dismantle it.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/10/nhs-hospital-waiting-lists-could-hit-10-million-in-england-this-year

www.pulsetoday.co.uk/news/some-hospital-specialties-may-take-two-years-to-clear-referral-backlog/20041072.article[/quote]
That's a tad over dramatic, and I say that
Having lived in an area with 25% unemployment as a child and young adult
Yes, there will be problems, but I strongly suspect the lives you have to live will still be better than those of most of history and those of most of the world today
And most of the problems could be solved if people stopped voting on short term selfish individualistic grounds

Well we will just have to wait and see won’t we.