Germany extending furlough to 24 months!

[latticechaos]

Saw that Germany was planning to extend their furlough scheme to 24 months because they don't expect the crisis to ease any time soon and they want to help citizens.

Made me feel pretty really, UK is going to see a sackload of job losses over the next few months.

I always felt the French plan for part time furlough was better than our scheme. UK scheme was very generous short term but has a hard ending.

@Entertained I actually just spat out my coffee in laughter at your post! Thank you for entertaining us and blessing us all with the wisdom of your education , we are truly humbled!

@Entertained have you ever lived abroad in a country that has a economic and social system than the UK?

Germany isn't perfect but the system supports those in it more so than the UK does and they pay more taxes anyway.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say except that you are clearly above all of us & further educated than all of us, please enlighten us with your educated mind because clearly, all of us are just uneducated idiots. Lol.

*better

Don’t understand this bit Entertained

‘Racism against the Germans? That makes no sense ‘

Excuse me for being obtuse , I didn’t finish my Ph.D unfortunately as DC came along so am a little less educated than I could be.

@FoolsAssassin I feel the same, completely inadequate as I only have two Masters degrees. We’ve really let our country down haven’t we

It's a form of racism to be nasty about germans just because of what hapoened in history, the UK hasn't exactly been a saint either....
No we haven't and i agree it's xenophobic to be nasty about Germans because of what happened in history. There is plenty of xenophobia against English people by some nationalities because of what's happened in history too or because of stereotyping and it's wrong. I think there is a xenophobic/racist factor in many countries.

Although there are plenty of people in any given country who aren't racist/xenophobic

I know Conifer, how very dare we

To be fair I can stand back and see objectively how a whole generation grew up in fear of the Germans at an incredibly scary and life changing time. It must go deep. Which is why I sucked it up at Bletchley Park last year when an older gentleman who was volunteering there was explaining something then branched off into a lengthy tirade about them.

My initial comment was more really to say that if the Government want to follow in footsteps of Germans (and I haven’t commented on rights or wrongs if this) that they will need to repackage it as will go down badly with a chunk of country as I suspect they are well aware of.

Johnson hates being seen as following anyone anyway, hence him leaving all the A level and GCSE students in limbo rather than being seen to follow Scotland. If they did decide to do something similar they would have to repackage it as unique and world beating.

@ConiferGate

Actually I will retract the cleaners part slightly, that’s from personal experience of having been burned by people who weren’t declaring income for other reasons. Not all are like that an many fall under the PA threshold anyway. But tradespeople... that’s definitely a problem area.

Oh dear! You've fallen into the "all self employed are tax dodgers trap".

I have no doubt that some tradespeople don't declare all their income. But, by the same token, lots of employed and unemployed do "moonlighters" too and don't declare all their income. Nor do drug dealers, people selling duty free cigarettes and booze, unemployed working "cash in hand" in restaurants, people selling counterfeit CDs etc on car boot sales.

That's a DIFFERENT issue.

The issue is that up to 3 MILLION self employed have fallen through cracks in Rishi's support system. These aren't just tradespeople, they're self employed, not by choice, maybe in the TV/film/theatre industry where self employment is the normal way. If they started their self employment mid 2018 onwards, highly likely they'd not qualify for anything under the unfair and arbitrary rules that Rishi brought in and has failed to "fine tune".

There is only one area that he has changed despite his promises to ensure "no one is left behind" and that was a special rule for those on maternity leave during the qualifying year! How can he change his unfair rules for one type of case but completely ignore all the others??

Whether s/e pay the right tax and nic is nothing to do with why some people got the support and others were excluded.

It's basically exactly the same at the A level fiasco. Some civil servants (different dept) came up with a plan, were incompetent so didn't think through the consequences, and don't care that people have been massively disadvantaged.

Just look at the media coverage of the A level students who number a mere fraction of the self employed who are losing their businesses, their homes, etc compared with an 18 year old who could retake their A level and just take a gap year!

The Germans have an incredible leader and a world leading economy.

I think people on furlough need to diversify.
If your industry has been shut down by Covid then you need to find another job and another income scheme - I know I'm putting it bluntly but that is what would happen at any other time.
Those people and companies who have adapted quickly will be ok, it you sit around hoping furlough will be extended you are taking a gamble.
As someone who is not a key worker and has worked throughout lockdown (not at home) I don't want my personal economic future to be paying for people to be on furlough for a couple of years. I haven't got a pension, and will work until I drop, I don't want to be paying crazy taxes to pay for years of furlough.
It's unfair for the poorly paid workers like me who didn't have the luxury of months of paid time off to play x-box, bake banana bread & decorate their houses.
I am a lefty liberal (I know I don't sound it) but I am fed up of hearing from friends and family about the wonderful things they did during furlough and how they have more money than me because they don't have to pay for commuting and how wonderful it is taking the dog for lots of walks etc!
I know without furlough these same people would be applying for jobs and would have re-started work.
My workplace is booming, and I know of lots of other places which are doing really well at the moment too- there are some jobs out there - maybe not enough to cover everyone, but you have to try and get one, not sit around while I work my arse off paying for everyone's furlough for the rest of my life.

@spacemonkeyhat your entire post is completely ignorant. Just because your business is booming now, it might not always be the case and you may well find yourself on the unemployment scrap heap. Most people on furlough were probably feeling very safe in their jobs before Covid came and turned the world upside down.

When it comes to October whatever industries can't open will need to be furloughed to some extent or they'll collapse.

We'll have no live music industry. Even The Cavern is at risk of closure now. Another 6-12 months plus and there'll be nothing left.

spacemonkeyhat

I wouldn't say it out loud,but I do have sympathy for your position.

@onedayinthefuture I have 2 jobs and I'm being made redundant in one of them (not related to Covid) I think it's unfair that some people would be entitled to furlough for potentially a very very long time, while I would be expected to go find a new job.
I'm not angry about it, I just think it's unfair.
I don't think people with a different opinion are ignorant BTW, it's a shame you do but 🤷‍♀️

I actually work in the arts and so do most of my friends, it doesn't mean we expect a job for life.
I feel for all the people expected to live on UC, while others are being paid 80% of their wages to be furloughed long-term.
I was happy with furlough being paid during lockdown, but I don't think it's a long term solution. Unless we all get a universal salary - I would love that, I could then give up my job and work on my creative hobbies full time and try and make that into a business.

The Germans have an incredible leader and a world leading economy.

It's not just the leader. The Germans are world-renowned for efficiency. Their civil servants etc will be head and shoulders above the people we have in our civil service, quangos etc. Just look at the shambolic A level results fiasco. Look at how hospitals ran out of PPE because their stocks had become out of date. Boris didn't personally make those decisions. 90% + of what the government does is based on advice from the so-called "experts" within each department and quango. It's why there's been decades of crazy governmental decisions regardless of which party was in power. The ministers etc are only figure heads - it's the civil servants etc doing the work, suggesting policy, implementing policy etc and time and time again, many prove to be incompetent, whether it's A levels, health, tax, benefits, or whatever. We really deserve a much better civil service. Time to end the "Yes Minister" approach! How about we recruit from Germany to bring some efficiency into the UK civil service??

People are furloughed because the business had to shut now industries are open most are back except some that are flexi furloughed. If businesses need the staff back they will bring them back .
I was furloughed until July because the trade I'm in only opened in July it was flexible furloughed for a couple of weeks then I was back full time because we are busy .
I don't understand why people are getting annoyed that people are still furloughed.
Some places have only just opened and some aren't at full capacity but it's on government advice .
If there are local lockdowns they may have to close places down again . If that happens they may have to furloughed people again that's not the businesses fault .

I think people on furlough need to diversify.

I agree. Far too many are sat around waiting happily on furlough and assuming their workplaces will open again soon. By the time they realise otherwise, all the jobs will have gone!

A classic case. A couple we know have a seaside B&B, never going to make them millions but it fitted in with their lifestyle, gave them an income (less than average wage) etc. When covid started kicking off in early March and they saw lockdowns etc in other countries and the potential of lockdowns here, they both went and got other jobs, husband working in a garage, wife working in supermarket. They didn't wait to see what would happen, they strongly suspected their B&B would have to close due to lockdown and probably wouldn't open in time for the usual busy Summer season. They both worked throughout lockdown full time and have still not re-opened their B&B. They'd have to give up their jobs to run the B&B and even though they'd have had a good few weeks in July and August, they knew that come Autumn/Winter, they'd be better off working in the garage/supermarket, so they took the decision to keep their jobs as they knew it would be more difficult to get new jobs once the Summer season was over. Long term thinking!

Furlough and the German Kurzarbeit — literally short work — aren't the same thing though. Under Kurzarbeit people are still at work but on reduced hours, the government scheme then tops up the wages. Everyone is therefore still working, so when things het back to normal it's very quick and easy to get everyone back into the office and up to speed. This is why it worked so well in 2010. Also, you don't get the mass redundancies either.

Fully agree the 3m who fell through the gaps in the scheme is a disgrace, we have close friends affected by this and it is unfathomable really this has been allowed.

@doradoo yes I think the scheme is very well designed. Presumably no coincidence that we had not done any economic planning for a pandemic, rushed out scheme out and it had flaws.

I'm glum today

Germany kept on workers in 2010 because they were mostly doing ‘high road’ skilled jobs and the German gov worked out that it would be easier to kickstart the economy by mothballing these jobs instead of making redundancies. German law already makes declaring redundancies a lot harder and more expensive than here.

This logic (sadly) has no place if your economy has taken the ‘low road’, preferring low skilled work and cheap and easy redundancy dismissal laws.

If you can replace your workers quickly with a new batch, who don’t need training because the job is easy, then keeping them on ice until the economy picks up makes no sense whatsoever to an employer.

Electronic monitoring helps here (although it has also left us more vulnerable to automation, to add to all the other of the uk’s worries).

It’s a shitshow, but it’s our shitshow.

This logic (sadly) has no place if your economy has taken the ‘low road’, preferring low skilled work and cheap and easy redundancy dismissal laws.

I think the main mistake was to adopt and encourage the "service" industries rather than manufacturing and other high quality employment. Our country's reliance on service industries is now an economic catastrophe as it's those industries which have been decimated by covid. I really hope it knocks some sense into the decision makers and that we really beef up our manufacturing sector again.

It’s a shitshow, but it’s our shitshow

Thanks, that's really cheered me up

The Germans are world-renowned for efficiency.

Apart from when it comes to building airports. Whenever I feel blue, reading about this incredible fiasco gives me a great chuckle.

I think it's sorted now and I cannot wait to fly into Berlin Brandenburg

www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment

[quote TheClitterati]The Germans are world-renowned for efficiency.

Apart from when it comes to building airports. Whenever I feel blue, reading about this incredible fiasco gives me a great chuckle.

I think it's sorted now and I cannot wait to fly into Berlin Brandenburg

www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2015-07-23/how-berlin-s-futuristic-airport-became-a-6-billion-embarrassment[/quote]
Have you tried the ‘How to fuck up an airport’ podcast? It’s a 4 part series on that.

I’m not sure we’re in a position to point and laugh though. I suspect that sort of thing happens much more over here. It’s almost expected these days.

I'll take a look cheers.

It's not so much pointing and laughing. It's just quite a spectacular story of an incredible fuck up. It's amazing story how it all happened, but especially in Germany.

I mean, they couldn't turn the lights off in a gigantic empty airport, for YEARS! I've driven passed it at night - all lit up.