Is anyone not sending their secondary school child back initially?

[lastkisstoo]

I've decided to keep my 15 year old home, probably until the October hols to see what happens.

We are in Scotland. What just happened in the pubs in Aberdeen is exactly what I see happening in schools. Mostly young adults, enclosed space, no social distancing.

My child has asthma, and while not on the list for sheltering I still feel is vulnerable enough that I don't want to see him being used as a guinea pig while the government assess just how big the uptick in cases will be on schools re-opening.

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

BBC bitesize is lousy please dont rely on that for GCSEs.

Bitesize is great as a supplement to other education for ks1 and ks2 but it's in no way adequate for GCSEs, neither is the Oak academy for more able year tens. Unless you are a teacher, and even then, I really would think twice about keeping a gcse year student home. I am concerned about the impact on health, of course, but on balance I think they need to be in. I do have reservations though.

schools were closed to break chains of transmission when the illness was on the rise.

The issue is that opening them without social distancing will just create new chains of transmission.

I believe the government has a duty to enable people to avoid through measures most especially social distancing. There is no benefit to an individual from catching it. If you are saying my children should be required to risk catching it for the good of society (economy) that is a big shift in the relationship between individual and state.

@SengaStrawberry

From a Public Health perspective, the whole point of lockdown was to protect the NHS but also other factors that couldn't be put in slogan form for the general public to understand. The purpose is to suppress the number of infections and most importantly to use that time wisely to suppress and put procedures in place ready for easing lockdown. We suppressed the pandemic well BUT a widespread and effective test and trace system needed to be in place before easing lockdown so that we can 'stamp put fires' before they escalate. This was stated multiple times in press conferences before it got quietly dropped as they realised they couldn't do this in time.

Without an effective test and trace, it is likely we will be faced with a second wave. Nothing is 100% safe, I agreed, I'm not being overzealous about it and I don't want the country shut forever. But, teachers have a right to have their concerns listened to. Being in a poorly ventilated space for hours on end with multiple people with no social distancing isn't acceptable. Nobody else is expected to do it, why should they?
The Government hasn't been quick enough in getting the t&t up and running? It is this that will enable schools to open fully and to minimise risk.

Children haven't miss 5/6 months of education. I think that minus the holidays it is around 14 works of face to face education with a teacher.

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

BBC bitesize is lousy please dont rely on that for GCSEs.

well, it is what most teachers rely on, so clearly school is not the place for your children, if you don't want them taught through this.

I’m in Scotland where I think tracing is better. Social distancing won’t happen in schools, of that I have no doubt. I took my son for a high school induction morning back in June and there was no SD with half of one year group in the school, there’s no chance it would have happened with half the full school in on any given day.

@labyrinthloafer Thousands of nurseries have been open for a couple of months now with Little to no SD, and just about every child behaving as normal except a bit of hand washing on the way in, temp checks and extra Cleaning but otherwise the usual dummy swapping, licking the same duplo blocks! (DD2 is in nursery currently) and we haven’t seen a great resurgence in cases linked to this... I don’t think it’s a case of requiring children to be put at risk... more a requirement for childcare/schools to reopen to provide children with an education and social interaction (Which has forever been a requirement), and childcare so parents can work... also a pretty big requirement for individual families, not just the economy.

@Remy82 there is now evidence that older children transmit as adults. I think we need to think carefully about the real risk of secondary schools with no social distancing.

Nurseries don't tell anything about secondary age pupils.

Children haven't miss 5/6 months of education. I think that minus the holidays it is around 14 works of face to face education with a teacher.

How long will it be if they don’t go back or only go back part time? Some authorities in Scotland had senior phase students only going back for 4 days every 3 weeks before the SD plans for schools were dropped! How on earth can that be deemed to be providing an adequate education?

@IfOnlyOurEyesSawSouls

In fact the covid cases are higher now than when the schools shut in march 🙄

Thats hardly true though is it. There was barely any testing in march and estimated. 100,000 cases a day!

@labyrinthloafer but surely the additional interaction from the adults who work their and the parents would; I arrive pass my child to the nursery staff - we couldn’t do that with any level of social distancing and there is no PPE, The age of the children means the adults will also interact all day without any SD, bottles, dummies and other items sent in from home... So If I’ve been to Bournemouth beach on the Saturday and dropped the kids off in said manner on the Monday (I haven’t) and potentially thousands of other families are doing the same thing we don’t feel we would have seen some link to cases from these environments... I agree the secondary school issue is different but at least a child of that age the staff don’t need to help with going to toilet, and aren’t as likely (I’d hope) to touching each other’s faces all day...

@SengaStrawberry

It isn't adequate but then just like we are asking teachers to 'step up to the mark' as parents we need to do the same. I'm not talking about the at-risk children but the children of parents like yourself who clearly care about your child welfare and education. Teachers have a right to have protection in their workplace. They are not currently being offered it. The Government has failed us all by not getting an effective T&T in place ready for schools opening. The report in the Lancet shows that without it we will probably have a second wave bigger than the first by December with all the disruption to education that that entails. Even before that, there will be schools shutting all over the place because of teachers having to isolate. Just because I want the schools to open full time as they were before with no disruption, doesn't mean that is what I'm going to get. In fact, I am certain that is not what I'm going to get.

I'm personally sick of hanging on to the words of the likes of Boris Johnson and Gavin Williamson in regards to my children's education. It won't be forgotten by the next election. I intend to step up to the mark in the meantime and try my best to fill the gaps that no doubt will occur when schools are closing left right and centre. I'm spending my time looking for resources and having my own Plan B. They can't be relied upon. I agree this is all an utter nightmare but it is the Government that has failed the parents, the teachers and the children.

“Stepping up to the mark” would have been much easier a few years ago when they were in primary and I had the goodwill of a long standing employer in a part time job. I now have 2 in secondary and am in no way able to assist in teaching their subjects, plus about to start a new full on full time role having been made redundant 3 months ago. Social distancing won’t happen in schools so it’s a farce opening them pretending it will, although I agree a phased return given the length of time out would be sensible.

I’d have no faith in Boris and co either but I do have a bit more in Nicola S.

@Remy82

Off the top of my head (with one eye on junior bake off!) some things I would say that make that nursery setting basically irrelevant to discussing secondary school:

• older children transmit as easily as adults
• a secondary school is 1000+ pupils (bubbles are nonsense)
• you are talking about the period post-lockdown to now, but cases are rising currently and opening schools will accelerate that

I think we need to look at the risks properly.

If you look back to some of the things that were said early doors:

• testing wasn't needed as we had a sophisticated healthcare system
• there wasn't risk in care homes
• cancelling mass gatherings wouldn't reduce transmission
• border quarantine wouldn't help limit transmission

I think 'social distancing is not needed in secondary schools' will get added to that list.

If anyone has a theory on why the virus will not spread widely in a building of 1000+ secondary pupils with no social distancing, I'm willing to listen.

Khan academy is great but US focussed, therefore less useful for an exam year in the Scottish system. There are probably fewer online resources as there is substantially less demand.

My personal view is that August is probably better than the normal flu season from October/November on so would take advantage of that window - leaving it until October could easily lead to an entire year without regular teaching.

The Scottish track and trace system also seems to be working well - much smaller population than England! The Aberdeen cluster has been detected relatively quickly because of track and trace.

Scotland is also still more shut down than England - no gyms etc until we have seen the impact of school reopening.

@Remy82 in your scenario I feel sending my senior children into school with no SD is akin to me going into a shop and licking the trolley handle. I'd happily accept the risk school poses if there were plans in place to mitigate that risk in the same way I accept the adjusted risks of shopping (masks, washing hands and not licking!)

I hope all my year 11s come back as even though I’ve taught video lessons since March, there are so many topics best taught face to face.

My school had over 80% of years 12 and 10 in school in June and I’m hoping for similar or more in September. My own dc are going back too.

@CanICelebrate

But they were not all in at the same time, we're they?

I would happily wish for 95% attendance if only 50% we're in at once!

Were not we're X two!

@Morfin @labyrinthloafer I feel like you can probably tell that my initial reservations when returning DD to nursery were likelihood of licking things 😂 and it is of course easy for me to comment without any DC in secondary school... always easier when it’s only your hypothetical kids isn’t it lol! So I do take your points on board. Without going into any real detail, I work with vulnerable children and I think the idea that lots of those parents aren’t sending their children back Out of fear, but equally arent acting in a responsible way in other aspects of life is very difficult for those in our ‘field of work’. When the risk to missing out of education, safeguarding and decent social interaction seems a bigger risk. I know they can send those children already... but so many don’t and won’t come September. Cases and death rates and drastically down in comparison and so I am sort of thinking well if not then, then when?

@Remy82 but I think this is what incenses me the most. The blind faith tally ho, everything back to normal approach is much more likely to result in school closures and the children you describe falling further through the cracks. I believe that the risk of whole school closures (except key workers /vulnerable) will be significantly more detrimental to senior school children than a blended learning approach.

ClimbDad
I wish I shared the certainty of some posters who say this virus is safe for children.That’s the opposite of what most scientists are saying. It doesn’t seem to cause acute illness in most children, but we have no idea whether there will be long-term complications.Big dice to roll.This is nowhere near as easy a decision as some are making out.

The London teenager in your link had been "battling a cough and a high temperature for about 10 days" before her family sought medical help - ideally they would have sought help sooner - when they did call for medical help an ambulance arrived within minutes.The teenager was treated at the Evelina Hospital in April - more details here;

"A detailed analysis of children with a rare childhood syndrome linked to COVID-19 has shown that early treatment is a key factor in outcomes.The clinicians leading the study advise parents to seek medical care for their child if they are worried."

"The first cases of PIMS-TS were treated at Evelina London in mid-April.The team initiated efforts with colleagues at St Mary’s Hospital, Imperial College London and Great Ormond Street Hospital to identify further cases and characterise the disease."

"The team analysed the characteristics of the disease in 58 children treated for PIMS-TS at eight hospitals across the UK between 25 March and 20 May 2020."

"They looked at patients’ symptoms, laboratory results, treatment and the progress of their disease and compared these to similar records from a large cohort of children previously treated for Kawasaki disease and toxic shock syndrome.This confirmed that the diseases are clinically different, and need to be managed in a different way."

"Of the 58 children diagnosed with PIMS-TS, 70% were from black Asian and minority ethnic (BAME) groups. It is not clear why this is the case, and from the small numbers involved, it is not statistically possible to tell whether BAME children have worse outcomes."

"The team found that the first cases they saw in April were more severe.With earlier identification and treatment, more recent patients had fewer complications."

"Dr Julia Kenny, consultant in paediatric infectious diseases and immunology at Evelina London, said:"

“Our analysis has shown that this is indeed a new condition."

"Untreated, there are serious complications but with early identification and treatment, outcome is excellent, with the children we are reviewing after discharge completely well."

www.evelinalondon.nhs.uk/about-us/news-events/2020-news/20200608-early-treatment-key-for-childhood-syndrome.aspx

@Morfin sorry for my lack of understanding on this one, what would a blended learning approach Look like/be? And when would it be a ‘good’ time to return children to school. I totally agree that the attitude of just cracking on without due thought and care isn’t desirable either. It just seems like a very impossible situation.

"That is an exceptionally stupid thing to do. This is his education and at 15 he isn’t old enough (and you aren’t wise enough) to decide for him.
Please don’t disadvantage your child."

I think it's a toss up between "disadvantaging" her child and either keeping him alive or watching him potentially suffer severe ill health.

Yep I have the choice of disadvantaging my child and possibly getting into trouble with the LEA or losing his school place,or disadvantaging my child by putting him at risk of getting ill himself (asthma) and possibly losing 1 (shielding) or both parents (both over 50). Son would particularly struggle with this sort of thing as is awaiting CAMHS assessment.

I feel like perhaps brushing up on some maths and analysing statistics would be useful for a lot on here.