Is anyone not sending their secondary school child back initially?

[lastkisstoo]

I've decided to keep my 15 year old home, probably until the October hols to see what happens.

We are in Scotland. What just happened in the pubs in Aberdeen is exactly what I see happening in schools. Mostly young adults, enclosed space, no social distancing.

My child has asthma, and while not on the list for sheltering I still feel is vulnerable enough that I don't want to see him being used as a guinea pig while the government assess just how big the uptick in cases will be on schools re-opening.

@underneaththeash

That is an exceptionally stupid thing to do. This is his education and at 15 he isn’t old enough (and you aren’t wise enough) to decide for him. Please don’t disadvantage your child.

Some people just cant miss an opportunity to be nasty

Friendsoftheearth
I think homeschooling tends to be done in small groups of parents, and with tutors for some subjects, rather than in total isolation. I haven’t yet looked into it deeply (though after this thread it looks, sadly, like I might have to). But I did know a Mum who opted to do it for a year, and who joined a local group. They met up almost every day, so it needn’t be something that’s so isolating. There are companies that specialize in materials. Under normal circumstances I wouldn’t have considered it, but with our circumstances I now may.

lab what on earth are you talking about? Of course you are responsible for your child if you homeschool, and yes the curriculum is extremely challenging (I have a MD in Economics and struggled doing the maths with dd this week) what is disgusting about pointing out that nine GSCES will be demanding for your child and ultimately for you as the parent? You can't just leave them to it, they will need a lot of help and support.

duff Some areas are incredibly well set up for homeschooling. Ours is one of them. We have an amazing network of groups and resources set up, it is well worth doing your research locally, and maybe meeting some of the groups over the holidays to see how it works. You might find you and your child really enjoy it, and some of the results here are very good too. It depends on the provisions of your area.

Perhaps you could also start a thread for further information, as MN is a good place to go for real life advice and experience - those that already home school, and those that have done in the past. There will be others like you also considering this option and will find it helpful.

[quote nostaples]This is particularly helpful at contextualising the risks by age medium.com/wintoncentre/what-have-been-the-fatal-risks-of-covid-particularly-to-children-and-younger-adults-a5cbf7060c49[/quote]
Two things, first (see attached) it's based on the fact we had lockdown, SD PPEetc. Schools have no SD/PPE they presume that the risks would be higher without it.
Secondly it's back to the obsession with those that don't agree that the only reason we don't want children back is because we are scared of them dying.

If I hear the car accident one again I will scream. Yes cars are dangerous, biggest risk of death for youngsters, so I mitigate as much as I can, well maintained car, seat belts not speeding etc. Yes Covid has risks so I mitigate as much as possible, wash hands, wear masks, SD- you know the Hands Face Space that Boris has been promoting, promoting for everywhere EXCEPT schools.

@mosquitofeast

As a secondary teacher, I intend to do everything I can to support children at home as well as children in lessons. I don't want frightened children forced into lessons. I also actually don't want full classes.

Thats such a reassuring post from a teachers view point.

Jen my school has said the same, I think because they care but ultimately it's in their interest for children to be learning as it will affect their school results table.

We have to consider the virus here.

The virus does not mug people, it does not have good or bad intent, and it does not listen to government directives.

It just spreads wherever it gets the chance because, biologically, that is what very infectious viruses do.

We are planning to send our children in together without adequate social distancing, or face masks etc. This will give it the opportunity to infect all of our young people,including the extremely clinically vulnerable. Many of them, especially in secondary school, especially the extremely clinically vulnerable,will get ill, and some of those will die.

This will also transmit infection to the teachers,especially the older and the extremely clinical vulnerable,who will also get ill ,and more of them will die. Likewise family members.

This is called a scientific understanding of the situation. Trust me,I am a doctor

There is good evidence for transmission in schools from Israel. We are going into the winter months now. The virus likes conditions around 4 degrees C.There is also an issue with travel, especially on buses or trains to secondary schools and colleges. We are also entering flu season.

The virus will not be dissuaded from spread by our political desire for libertarianism, or concerns about children who might be abused etc. The virus will simply do what viruses do, which is infect people. We need to stop it, especially where vulnerable people are concerned. That is the science. It is a very good argument, given the course of the past few months and the mistakes that have been made.

Some posters say they are teachers, and want to dragoon all the kids back. I assume you don´t teach science.

I have absolutely no intention at this time of deregistering. I will bide mt time. Wisely.

@Friendsoftheearth

lab what on earth are you talking about? Of course you are responsible for your child if you homeschool, and yes the curriculum is extremely challenging (I have a MD in Economics and struggled doing the maths with dd this week) what is disgusting about pointing out that nine GSCES will be demanding for your child and ultimately for you as the parent? You can't just leave them to it, they will need a lot of help and support.

Can I just ask - and I'm not confirming either way - but where did I mention GCSEs?

This what I mean - you're making things up in your own head.

I think you are projecting a lot in this thread.

Also, how do you get an MD in Economics?

You can't just leave them to it, they will need a lot of help and support.

Again, thanks for pointing out the bleeding obvious. People who post things like this must never speak to anyone ever, do they think parents don't understand this basic point?

I never ceased to be amazed at the lack of thinking sometimes on Mumsnet!

@caplin

Can you provide a link for the Scottish online risk assessment, please?

Thank you.

Just read through again, and rather than ¨get ill¨, should say ¨get infected¨ as there may well be few or no symptoms in young people who are not clinically vulnerable - the problem is the carriage and the transmission to the more clinically vulnerable.

That is what we need to avoid.

As regards children at home who are not being treated well, it will be much more difficult to get help to them if we fail to contain the virus and end up in more lockdowns. We need to manage this situation well for them, but allowing widespread infection to rampage is not the way to do that. I dont have an answer (not my field) though I might have a few ideas.

@nostaples I can assure you my children have covered more at home, with more thought, discussion and analysis than it’s possible to cover in a classroom. The areas I am not competent enough in are picked up by a tutor. My children socialise regularly and are the envy of their friends being allowed a few more months off.

When as a Society did we delegate the upbringing of our children solely to schools?!?

My children grew in confidence and practical skills as a result of home learning. School is of course very valuable and I don’t intend to remove them forever, just until more is understood, which changes weekly.

A lot of what you have written in this thread is factually incorrect. Schooling in other parts of the world is successful as they have far more rigorous measures in place and low community transmission.

I really wonder if those vehemently shouting about others “denying their kids education” are in fact the ones struggling mentally with this crisis. I’ve done a lot of reading, understand exactly where we sit and have adjusted our lives accordingly. I’m not anxious, merely accepting and adapting. School will be very disrupted for the Winter in a lot of locations, although not all and being home educated could quite possibly confer an advantage.

The economic fall out from this will be felt by a generation, probably more, to come. Rigidly sticking to Education in its current sense is naive. Have you read the likely impact on Universities? I personally think this will result in a shift in numbers going on to University. Apprenticeships will likely make a resurgence for many.

I struggle to follow the logic of many trying to demand we return to “normal”. There’s only a new normal now due to the economic fallout from this.

@Oaktree55 it's clear that you're doing a wonderful job educating your DCs and it sounds like they're enjoying it.

I have a fulfilling job I enjoy - as does DH - and bills to pay. I outsource teaching of my DC to professionals who can do a much better job than I can. From dipping my toes into trying to supplement what DS was getting from school, I get frustrated quickly or end up doing the work for him. I was ok at a couple of subjects - Economics and English- but that's about it.

A quick google tells me that schooling for all has been in place since 1870, so hardly some new fangled invention.

Some people are doing a great job teaching or supplementing teaching from home, some of us aren't. Schools exist for a reason, and if we have to move back to online so be it , I'll supplement with tutors if needed, but DS isn't going to pass his Nat 5s with me solely at the helm.

I really wonder if those vehemently shouting about others “denying their kids education” are in fact the ones struggling mentally with this crisis. I’ve done a lot of reading, understand exactly where we sit and have adjusted our lives accordingly. I’m not anxious, merely accepting and adapting. School will be very disrupted for the Winter in a lot of locations, although not all and being home educated could quite possibly confer an advantage.

I think about this a lot. The level of anger from some people suggests they are not finding things easy.

If you bother to read any of the articles I’ve provided or look at the data you will understand that children have the lowest risk of any other group. They also are the least likely to spread.

Its not a case of "not bothering" it is a case of I don't click on random links provided by disillusionals on the internet. We all have plenty of access to objective data.

I have already listed some of the harm I have seen come to children and teenagers through covid, not in a link, but in a post. Let me do it again:

disability resulting from scarred lungs
loss of hearing
loss of parents
becoming carer for parent left disabled
terrifying experiences and trauma

All within one medium sized school
And some of those catagories have several children in them.

So stop harping on about how harmless this is to children, because it isn't.

And I have tried to tell you this repeatedly, but you just don't seem to get it.

The threat to individuals is not what this is about.

There is a threat to the whole fabric of society.

Look at it like this.

We were left without enough bus drivers locally, due to covid related deaths, months in recuperation, and long term disabilities.Buses also could not be serviced, due to the same among the maintenance staff. So allowing covid to run uncontrolled through this service has lead to lack of skilled labour and lack of usable vehicles, a reduction in service and a number of people who will need to be cared for at public expense for the rest of their lives.

Now scale that up to every single industry and sector in the country. Including farming, food supply chains, water, sewage, electricity.

Can't you get it into your head that individual risk is not the issue? If you or I die, it matters not one whit. If we contribute to spreading this virus, we could be contributing to the break down of social order.

Some people are too narrow minded and limited of thinking to get their heads around this. I put this down to lack of experience of the world, people who have travelled a bit more, and seen this happen in other countries, know it can happen, know it does happen, know that our way of life is under threat.

So please stop this rubbish. The virus is not harmless to children, it is potentially devastating.

If its your healthy 14 year old lying choking on the floor, desperate to be able to breath in, left in pain for weeks, and traumatised, even if they do make a full recovery, you are going to NEED to know that you personally were not responsible for them going through that.

I have seen terrified children choking, and even though they were might not count on any statistic anywhere being fully physically recovered, they will never forget they experience, and nor will the other children in the class who saw it.

@mosquitofeast

Thank you for that post, there's a lot in there I feel strongly too. Death is low on my list of concerns about this virus.

I'm not good at posting because I cba to argue round and round, but reading a post like that makes me feel less alone.

I'm frightened by how England is characterising it as an individual health issue. That is the main barrier to us dealing with this well as a country.

disability resulting from scarred lungs
loss of hearing
loss of parents
becoming carer for parent left disabled
terrifying experiences and trauma

All within one medium sized school
And some of those catagories have several children in them.

This does sound a lot more than my dc have encountered in school. They don’t know anyone who has tested positive. In primary there wasn’t a child, only one parent. Secondary dc says no friend has had it.

Your experience does sound different.

@nostaples

Again a quick Google will tell you that Swedish studies and experience suggests opening schools makes no difference to the r rate www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN24G2IS

But hey why bother looking at science and data when you can make things up out of paranoia?

again, you have no idea what you are talking about. You are just trawling the internet looking for stuff that confirms your bias.

Sweden has a completely different definition of a school being "open". In fact, wchools that are classed as "open" in Sweden would be classed as "closed" in the uk.

And many Swedish parents are keeping their children away from school, and they are being allowed to do that.

But you don't know anything about that, do you. You have no actual real life contact in Sweden.

Again, a completely ignorant pronouncement based on thinking yourself an expert for being able to look in google, no understanding of epidemiology, no actual real life experience of disease, no genuine international contacts or travel. no actual thinking ability, generally so limited and narrow minded that I am saving your posts to use and a teaching aid when teaching about insular thought and confirmation bias.

Around 196 schools out of 30,000 plus had an outbreak (two or more students). The vast majority of dc won’t have encountered even a positive test.

@Friendsoftheearth

lab if you are not willing to discuss the real reasons then there is nothing more to say. You can not support your own position.

Just to clear, you are only harming your own child and their prospects unless you are incredibly well qualified to teach all nine subjects at GCSE level. Once deregistered from school, it will be your responsibility to ensure your child receives a good level of education at home every day.

It is up to you.

Lab is under no obligation to say anything personal here at all. Like all of us, they can contribute as much or as little as they want, and the way you keep trying to make them say more than they want says more about you than them

Mosquito what you are describing sounds worse than the Israel school, where most students were asymptomatic or mild symptoms.

And this happened when secondary sent 1/4 students back in?

Or in a primary with bubbles of 15

One school is apparently dealing with dozens of bereaved families, that community will be very traumatised. Certainly schools and areas vary widely.

There's a long way to go with this, we will know so much more by spring, for good or for bad.

It’s very unlucky, no hospitalisations from Israel.

Overall, 153 students and 25 staff members were confirmed as COVID-19-positive. The data from the epidemiological investigation are shown in the Table. The COVID-19 rates differed between groups. Male cases were slightly overrepresented. The rate of cases reporting symptoms, upon meticulous questioning, was 43% (66/153) among students and 76% (19/25) among staff. The leading symptoms reported were cough, headache, fever, sore throat and myalgia. One emergency room visit was recorded and no hospitalisations.