Chris Witty "We're at the limits of the contact we can allow"

[confusedandold]

I've been watching the Press conference and I always find Chris Witty the voice of reason. He is saying that we are at the limit of what we can open without the virus spreading further and we may even have to take a step back. So where does this leave the opening of schools in a few weeks time?

there is no evidence from Sweden ( where schools never shut) or Switzerland or Austria Germany Netherlands or France that there have been any spikes or outbreaks related to schools or teachers there may have been a few dotted cases but since May there has been no evidence from anywhere in the world that schools are a bigf transmission factor

@MarshaBradyo

Angelil that does sound encouraging, did they have any measures in place do you know? (Masks / SD etc)

@MarshaBradyo Children and young people don’t have to socially distance from each other, but do have to socially distance from adults (...as you would expect in a school anyway!). Adults have to continue social distancing from other adults in school. Masks are optional. In the Netherlands generally masks are only required on public transport and in certain busy areas of certain cities (e.g. Amsterdam’s museum district). Schools initially reopened with children coming in on a rota basis (e.g. 2 days a week or on morning/afternoon shifts) but it was left up to individual schools to work out how they wanted to handle this. The September return will likely be full-time though now that teenagers no longer have to socially distance.

@TeacupDrama exactly.

There have actually been several cases in France (Senior Schools only went back last week or so). Israel is the real “apples with apples” as they opened fully.

@angelil I wouldn't under normal circumstances socially distance from children in my class. I usually circulate, speak to them individually, help them with their work - my eyesight isn't good enough to see what they have written from 2m away.

The main problem with pubs and some extent restaurant and café is that people will mix with other households and they sit close together whereas if they go to someone's house they tend to sit further apart.

@TeacupDrama how do we explain the increase in outbreaks from educational settings that PHE reported on weekly? If what you're saying was true why on earth would Chris Witty be worried in the first place? You're minimising because that's what you'd like to think is the truth. The truth is that all countries which opened schools have seen a rise roughly in proportion to the cautiousness of their approach in opening schools. Posts like yours spread misinformation and I've reported it.

@Flagsfiend true, but in many countries the guidance is only 1m. Even when checking children’s work we don’t get much closer than that.

In terms of the school opening this looked useful..

(from an outbreak in schools which re-opened fully)

www.eurosurveillance.org/content/10.2807/1560-7917.ES.2020.25.29.2001352#html_fulltext

"COVID-19 prevention in schools involves studying in small groups and minimising student mixing in activities and transportation. Teachers and parents should lead by wearing facemasks, hand hygiene, keeping physical distance etc. School attendance should be avoided at any sign of illness. Learning from home may also reduce the need for class attendance. Outdoors classes should also be considered. COVID-19 prevention encompasses avoiding the ‘three Cs’: closed spaces with poor ventilation, crowded places and close-contact settings [15]. The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control’s report on air-conditioning and ventilation systems and COVID-19 recommends increasing air exchange rate and outdoor air use and decreasing air recirculation, aiming to reduce spread in indoor spaces [16]. Finally, appropriate planning of COVID-19 prevention for the next school year is essential."

Haven't Australia had lots of school closures due to outbreaks despite their low prevalence ( compared to us)

www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2020/07/30/world/australia/melbourne-schools-lessons-america.amp.html

So, not a single thing that we're going to do or be able to do here then? (except, possibly, the sending ill kids home).)

On gyms..."Half the spin bikes have been removed from the studio."

Lots of huffing and puffing with spin... Zumba too, not just contact is it. It seems a bit random how gyms have interpreted the rules.

The Israel link about says the classes were overcrowded, with up to 29 students. Recommended less than e.g. 23...

@ListeningQuietly

I do think gyms are high risk and pubs are high risk, for different reasons. You may think it but the evidence from countries that re opened their gyms in may is that you are wrong

Alcohol and social distancing are a BAD combination

Disagree my thinking is based on evidence. The evidence is that increased respiration is a major risk and gyms do typically have poor ventilation and people panting as they work out. The attached isn’t 100% accurate but a rough guide to risk in different scenarios by medics. Obviously if gym has good ventilation and there are only a couple of people then lower risk than a busy pub.

Medics/aerosol experts 🤷🏽‍♀️. Time will tell who’s right.

Did any of these countries have the levels of infections and deaths as ours?

Did they have chronically underfunded schools and classes of up to 32?

Did they have chronic shortages of teachers meaning a few simple isolating for 10 days would cause them to close.

What I have read on Sweden is extremely worried parents with critical conditions themselves or in their children being forced to send their children to schools with known infections or be threatened with social services taking their kids away. Also massive under reporting of cases and zero record taking about school infections ergo no evidence of school spreading because they're not recording infections in school.

Again no evidence of infection in school doesn't mean evidence of no infection in school.

I am massively sympathetic to some of the parents in Sweden who are being told to either send their vulnerable kids to school or risk having them taken into care.

Are secondary schools also still closed in Sweden?

I wish I had saved some of the Swedish articles I read. It made me even more glad that we've held onto the legal right to home educate here. In countries where it is illegal not to send your kids to school shielding parents or children have been put in horrendous situations.

This Pediatric report was on another thread

Pediatrics Publications and is very recent

I do agree that the decision to home educate must remain with the parent

But the flip side to that is that you should have a decision to make. Ie a school that is accessible

[quote Angelil]@Flagsfiend true, but in many countries the guidance is only 1m. Even when checking children’s work we don’t get much closer than that.[/quote]
I think I do get regularly closer than 1m, 1m is actually quite a long way - further than arm's length. I'd stand or sit next to a child to help them so I'd be about 10 - 20 cm away.

Which countries have no Test and Trace (or app?) like England?

Schools going back needs robust contact tracing especially in secondary school and each seat in a classroom is used by up to 6 people daily.

In organized countries like South Korea I'd be told that my child sat in the same chair as a child who tested positive and would be able to get a test.

Current testing capacity is 200,000 per day (cough) but there's 9 million children (and lots of adults) at school.

www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-sweden-compels-parents-send-kids-to-school-2020-5?r=US&IR=T

www.newsweek.com/swedish-parents-teachers-say-theyre-being-forced-risk-childrens-health-due-mandatory-class-1504035

Just taken the top two off of a quick google.

I am extremely glad we don't have a system like this. Having to deregister your child when you are not in usual times someone who wants to home educate is horrible but to not even have that option - for the state to basically own your kids and you to have no say in their health and safety is an awful system imho.

Not a tory fan by any stretch of the imagination but they are the party who have defended the right to 'education otherwise' as outlined in the education act every time labour have tried to change the law and make decisions about children's education solely belong to the state.