School re-opening under threat

[jomartin281271]

Headline in the London Evening Standard today that this new surge could threaten re-opening of schools. I'm not surprised. The government know that it's not safe to open schools under their current guidance. Cramming children, teachers and admin staff into those tiny spaces could cause a catastrophe. I feel sorry for teachers. Most of them are really committed to the job and their lives are being put at risk. Scary times.
www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-second-wave-schools-september-a4511516.html

@cantkeepawayforever

How tiny do you think the risk is of you catching it? Mathematically speaking, by your estimation?

I have no idea but considering how few cases there are in the community its tiny. And then even if you catch it you're however likely to be asymptomatic.

I mean, I can see you're trying to outsmart me or make me look stupid but it doesn't change my opinion.

I am truly shocked at the disregard for teachers on mn.

How tiny do you think the risk is of you catching it?
I think the risk of me catching Covid is higher if I’m teaching over 150 students per week with no PPE, than it would be if those students were appropriately SD in smaller groups, and wore masks, contact hours reduced, teaching styles adjusted to allow for SD, and funding provided for additional cleaning. I certainly think my risk is higher when Covid can be spread by faeces and I’m being asked to clean toilets on a rota because there’s no additional funding for proper cleaners with heavy duty PPE. They aren’t even making any effort to minimise the risk, it’s just a straight “nope” and an expectation that staff will (as usual) soldier on. But this time they’re expecting too much.

Considering they are in the same building and people move around a lot in a hospital, theyre still at more risk than your average teacher.

This isn't true. Hospitals now have strict segregation of patients, the ones I've been in recently had 'green' (definitely not covid), 'amber' (possibly covid) and 'red' (definitely covid) lanes and no cross contamination at all. Medics are taking this very seriously indeed. Because they know how serious it is. And everyone wears masks all the time.

So Trust, what you are saying is that because you think the risk is tiny, I have to accept that?

They aren’t even making any effort to minimise the risk

This is true. If you look at virtually every other country, they are doing more to reduce risk in schools.

I want my children back in school but I want proper social distancing, masks, extra money for ventilation and handwashing, small bubbles. Extra money for extra staff if needed. Properly functioning test and trace. I don't want opening as normal and then lockdown again, I think that is what will happen if current plans aren't changed and will be far more disruptive.

I fully support teachers and I don't think they should have to work in what is clearly a high risk environment. The government has rightly mandated masks for people spending 10 mins together in a shop environment (countries with early mask wearing have a much lower death rate), it's clear they should be following the science for schools too.

I certainly don’t disregard teachers. Those I actually know I generally think are great. Same with all the other school staff. I think reasonable levels of protection are necessary for everyone, and at the moment, in secondary school at least, I don’t think the proposals fulfil that need. I don’t think the risk to children or staff can or should be zero before schools go back full time, but I think it’s fair to make it as low as for any other public facing role.

I do however as a parent find it extremely hard to read, on what feels like every single school thread, the posts from past and current teachers almost gleefully jumping in to tell us about how awful it is, how they all can’t wait to leave, they’d never return to teaching no matter what, they’re all so miserable and hate the job, it’s unbearable stress, they’re at incredibly high risk... it doesn’t exactly make me feel good then entrusting my small children to them. Would you want your children educated and looked after by someone who very clearly didn’t want to be there? I’m horrified by the idea that the kind, enthusiastic and positive staff I have spoken to at my children’s school are all actually just pretending and secretly think that in sending my child to school I’m trying to kill them.

That’s in very large part a government failure, but I can see how both sides end up frustrated and defensive.

Well thats the thing with online we cannot all see each others age/sex etc
Even 20yo were thought to have a 1% chance of needing o2 though and i dont trust gov to have that available as basically they were gatekeeping that at peak causing some of these excess deaths.
It is clear some people cant see themselves instead of as being just a teacher they need to imagine being an over 60 maybe diabetic etc.
Im not convinced on wave 2 that schools wont be more risky than hospital due to the masks etc

I do however as a parent find it extremely hard to read, on what feels like every single school thread, the posts from past and current teachers almost gleefully jumping in to tell us about how awful it is, how they all can’t wait to leave, they’d never return to teaching no matter what, they’re all so miserable and hate the job, it’s unbearable stress

Reality can be hard to read.

Ha so true! Most can’t handle reality though as evidenced by this Pamdemic!

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2768952

Apparently young children can have 10-100 times as much Covid virus in their nasal passages compared to everyone else. Meanwhile older children appear to spread the virus at a similar rate to adults. This will (or should) have consequences for schools reopening. In light of this I don’t find it reasonable for teachers to be expected to work without PPE.

I’m horrified by the idea that the kind, enthusiastic and positive staff I have spoken to at my children’s school are all actually just pretending

You don’t have the rights to our thoughts though?

When I go back in September, I’ll put on the same cheery calm face to the kids that I had on in March just before lockdown despite being incredibly and unhealthily stressed about it all.

I’m not sure what you’d rather - that staff were honest about it being shit to parents? You admit that the situation is crap but you’d rather we were happy about it because that would make you feel better?

You can’t assume that the teachers on MN are aberrations, teachers are quitting in droves.

It's shit. We have 1000 pupils and no way to social distance.

Nothing is in place but a couple of hand sanitiser stations.

Where is the fucking leadership on this.

And that gleeful “it’s reality” attitude is exactly what I’m talking about.

But if that’s reality I wish you’d actually have the guts to be honest to parents (not on the internet, that’s easy, parents of the children you actually teach) instead of this “game face” crap and resign. I’d rather my children’s school was part time than staffed by people who don’t want to be there. Maybe a mass walkout is what education needs to sort it out...

I’m probably alone here but please can I have an honest letter from school saying, “this is a joke, the Gov Guidance is pointless, we’re all bricking it, sorry but your kids will probably be taught science by the music teacher for the majority of the year as he has spare capacity as choir is banned. We won’t clean the loos as often as we are meant to and the PE Staff don’t have a clue about hygiene so whatever we try and do to mitigate risk they just undermine”.

Instead I’ll get a “We have all been working hard to ensure the safe return of pupils in line with Gov Guidance”........🙄

Complete farce.

I’m guessing that teaching isn’t usually an especially risky job.

Unlike, say, being a fireman, or a policemen. Or working on an infectious diseases unit, or an oil rig, or in a nuclear power station or with prisoners or high secure patients.

Many, many people have to weigh up risk as part of their job, but the risks of teaching seem low in normal times.

Perhaps those of us who face risk in our jobs are better at dealing with it.

God if the unions actually did try to block the reopening of schools instead of the media just claiming they are, people would really lose their shit.

Triangular you appear to be under the illusion that the public give a toss about the working conditions of teachers - we went on strike a few years ago and it was the most pointless exercise ever. Invited a massive pile-on. Game face then resign is the only option teachers have left.

And dear god there have been enough posters on these threads telling us to do exactly that. I don’t think they realise that England is critically short of teachers already.

I’m guessing that teaching isn’t usually an especially risky job

Guessing is dead right. Try finding out, why don't you?

[flower]

I personally feel you're massively overestimating the chances of your impending death

Not every teacher is a white, 22 year old female with no underlying health conditions. Teachers must be broadly representative of the general adult population so a significant number have conditions such as diabetes or are over 50, overweight, of BAME origin...or a combination of those things. Moreover, teachers and school staff do not exist in a vacuum - we live with people, some of who are classed as vulnerable or who have been shielding. And whilst I accept death is unlikely, there is no denying it will happen to some school staff, just as it has happened to some medical staff. And - crucially - some school staff will be off work for weeks and months with Covid and it is precisely this that will cause school closures. Not forgetting that we too will have to sometimes isolate and/or be in the same position as everyone else when a school closes and there is no one to care for our children. The more kids in school at a given time, the more frequently and for longer periods we are going to be closed.

We leave the chemists in the staffroom to bond. It’s going to take a hell of a lot of energy to get them to socially distance.

Community transmission is on the increase and visibly a lot of people are choosing to ignore social distancing guidelines. This is evident through members of my own family, friends on Facebook and in general, people on days out. With more local lockdowns, I predict a very messy return to school in a September for some parts of the country. Schools/teachers/unions must not be blamed for this, it is everyone’s social responsibility to social distance, where possible, to ensure the community transmission is as low as possible for the next 4 weeks.

@Triangularbubble

And that gleeful “it’s reality” attitude is exactly what I’m talking about.

But if that’s reality I wish you’d actually have the guts to be honest to parents (not on the internet, that’s easy, parents of the children you actually teach) instead of this “game face” crap and resign. I’d rather my children’s school was part time than staffed by people who don’t want to be there. Maybe a mass walkout is what education needs to sort it out...

I can just imagine the response if schools did this. Teachers / school staff would be accused of catastrophizing, trying to keep schools closed, not caring about the children and not having a can do attitude. With a bit of don't they get enough time off already, it's a good job XYZ job didn't have this attitude, and if they don't want to go back then they should resign.

Have I missed anything?

I don't read the 'it's reality' as gleeful, but as frustration.

There's clearly a LOT of government concern right now, with local lockdowns and increasing the self-isolation period.

I think if we are like this now, September and October do feel quite daunting.

Many people want to look on the bright side, it is a good strategy to cope with a crazy world. at times you needs your optimists and at times you need your pessimists. I think we are in a phase where we need our pessimists, because if they're wrong we get fewer cases than we feared and a boring winter.

If we go with the optimistic view, and they're wrong, we are going to be using the temporary morgues again.

I'm so tired of arguing with my fellow Britain-dwellers.

I can just imagine the response if schools did this. Teachers / school staff would be accused of catastrophizing, trying to keep schools closed, not caring about the children and not having a can do attitude. With a bit of don't they get enough time off already, it's a good job XYZ job didn't have this attitude, and if they don't want to go back then they should resign.

I think you have it all covered. Unfortunately swathes of the general public are deeply dim and actually would think that way.

Ickabog
I can just imagine the response if schools did this. Teachers / school staff would be accused of catastrophizing, trying to keep schools closed, not caring about the children and not having a can do attitude. With a bit of don't they get enough time off already, it's a good job XYZ job didn't have this attitude, and if they don't want to go back then they should resign.

You missed they are only striking for more money

Otherwise just a normal day on MN.