School re-opening under threat

[jomartin281271]

Headline in the London Evening Standard today that this new surge could threaten re-opening of schools. I'm not surprised. The government know that it's not safe to open schools under their current guidance. Cramming children, teachers and admin staff into those tiny spaces could cause a catastrophe. I feel sorry for teachers. Most of them are really committed to the job and their lives are being put at risk. Scary times.
www.standard.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-second-wave-schools-september-a4511516.html

You know what, my complaint is not with the lack of masks. My concern comes with the fact that at the moment (and September looks even more so) it is not possible to have the 'old normal'.

I do not believe that full time school for all pupils in September is safe for anyone. Trial half classes / part time, see how it goes. If all goes well, increase the numbers in school. See how it goes, repeat. Don't just throw everyone back in September and hope for the best. There is no back up plan for if it's not possible to reopen in September, no back up plan for if plan A fails. Guidance should cover all bases, not just the 1 that Government hope will work as at the moment it's looking like if they do reopen in September they'll be closed by October half term.

[quote Shitfuckoh]@TrustTheGeneGenie I haven't seen any evidence yet that they don't.

My point is, this is a new virus. Everyone who needs to, is currently working hard trying to figure out exactly how it works.
We know, even with the best will in the world, most primary school kids are germ rags. They'll cough & sneeze on you, double points for them if they let rip at the same time!

So whilst there's no evidence they're super spreaders, there's no evidence that they aren't.

Until there is evidence either way, then teachers (and everyone else, you are correct) should be offered the same chance of protection as everyone else. I'm fully aware it doesn't mean 0 transmission but it reduces the risk.
The way schools are due to reopen in September, there is no reduced transmission risk at all. Staff in schools have been told not to wear masks / PPE.

Long winded but my point is, if we have to wear a mask for 20 minutes whilst shopping (with social distancing in place), why are teachers expected to be in a classroom, with 30 others, with no social distancing and no masks at all, 5 days a week?[/quote]
Because they’ve calculated how much risk the country can take and decided teachers can take a bit extra. It’s out of order and it won’t be allowed. I think the unions are just waiting for the government to admit to their own mistakes before they step in. It’s a bonkers plan even if numbers had continued to decline.

The plans were made on the basis that numbers would continue to decline - they’ve plateaued at best.
I feel so sad teachers haven’t had the time in schools to plan for better, realistic provision and that the government has so little regard for their mental health.
Everyone has a teacher that they were maybe scared of or didn’t like, I wonder if that’s why people are happy to kick the boot in. I’m not working atm but know so many teachers who give up and continue to give up so much, we should be making schools as safe as possible for them and all the children that need to attend.

@walker1891

There are 31000 children infected in Florida right now....of all ages...1/4 of which are 5-10 year olds. I assume they caught it from mixing with both adults and other children. If children don't transmit it, why do they wear PPE on the children's wards in case?

Errrr to avoid giving it to children if they are an asymptomatic carrier, perhaps?

@Shitfuckoh

You know what, my complaint is not with the lack of masks. My concern comes with the fact that at the moment (and September looks even more so) it is not possible to have the 'old normal'.

I do not believe that full time school for all pupils in September is safe for anyone. Trial half classes / part time, see how it goes. If all goes well, increase the numbers in school. See how it goes, repeat. Don't just throw everyone back in September and hope for the best. There is no back up plan for if it's not possible to reopen in September, no back up plan for if plan A fails. Guidance should cover all bases, not just the 1 that Government hope will work as at the moment it's looking like if they do reopen in September they'll be closed by October half term.

Arguably that should have happened before / during the summer holidays.

They've been off school too long now to start staggering them back in over months.

What will parents do? Furlough is going to end, people can't afford to take more time off work, and some children are learning bugger all at home for various reasons. How long can it carry on?

There is a huge conflation of issues, which makes it hard to solve the problem:

1- People that are concerned are not necessarily afraid of dying. There are clearly a number of other long term consequences that everyone should be wanting to avoid. If a large proportion of the population will have heart and lung problems in the future, we are all going to have to pay for it.

2 - If someone is worried, they are not saying that they want lockdown to stay forever.

3 - Education and child care are different beasts and perhaps could be separated somehow?

4- The relative importance of point 3 changes between primary and secondary. So the best solution is likely different for both. Bubbles are much easier to handle in primaries, and the need for childcare is much greater with younger ones. People get mad with each other because one poster is thinking about secondary, while other have primary kids in mind...

5 - There are clearly many children that are not thriving in lockdown, but there are some that are. One of the biggest isuues is how to fit and transport secondary kids, so why should we say that everyone needs to go back or be fined? A child that does well learning on their own with teacher guidance, is very different from a child cut off from school.

6- As people said in the beggining...if the disruptions are inevitable, isn't better to keep the core education of secondary schools online and view in school activities as opportunities for practicals, arts, mental health, sports, etc? This way we can do the best of both worlds?

Statements that schools will reopen no matter what is, i'm sorry, just populist statements with little concern for evidence.

My friend works abroad in a school and all children from 2 upwards wear masks. She said they are very good at wearing them and not messing and all staff, parents and children have had training on masks etc. She sent me a link to all the children having training on their website. They have been meticulous about it. That country have had less than 100 deaths and are currently averaging single figure cases daily nationwide. That gives me the confidence that it can work.

There are 2 key points here, happily both require the same solution. Firstly, of course teachers want to feel that their safety is not less important than other people and workers. Plus we actually care about our pupils and their families and would hate to think we were part of an outbreak for them. But secondly, there is no slack in schools, no spare staff at all. If the government want schools to stay open, we need measures to minimise spread if possible, because once we are down even a very small number of staff, school can't function.

@Jrobhatch29 but children need to wear masks when entering hospitals. Surely if children don't transmit it, then there's no need at all for children to wear one?

Errrr to avoid giving it to children if they are an asymptomatic carrier, perhaps?

Errrrrr face shields aren't to protect the child, they are to protect the eyes from the child's droplets.

Anyone else think the government is just sticking desperately to a plan they devised a few months ago when the stuff about having the Oxford vaccine by September was being talked about? Nevermind if there’s a second wave, we’ll have vaccinated by half term? Unfortunately not looking like that’s going to be the case!

part time school isn't sufficient

Sure, and you reckon opening and closing constantly with kids and staff in/out all over the place is? At least a blended part time model would stand more chance of sticking over winter.

Personally, I hope it all goes to shit in Scotland when they open up schools shortly. Maybe then the government might actually do some proper planning.

@walker1891

My friend works abroad in a school and all children from 2 upwards wear masks. She said they are very good at wearing them and not messing and all staff, parents and children have had training on masks etc. She sent me a link to all the children having training on their website. They have been meticulous about it. That country have had less than 100 deaths and are currently averaging single figure cases daily nationwide. That gives me the confidence that it can work.

And yet we are being told it's dangerous to put face coverings on under threes?

@MoreW1ne

part time school isn't sufficient

Sure, and you reckon opening and closing constantly with kids and staff in/out all over the place is? At least a blended part time model would stand more chance of sticking over winter.

Personally, I hope it all goes to shit in Scotland when they open up schools shortly. Maybe then the government might actually do some proper planning.

Of course it's not but it's not a given that will happen is it?

Schools have remained open in Sweden and yet there has not been reports of all hell breaking loose.

You hope it all goes to shit? In what way? You'd like teachers to get Ill or die? You'd like children to get Ill or die? You'd like rates to rise massively? Deaths to rise massively? You'd like that?

What about the children who have had no escape from their abusive homes for the last few Months? It’s those I feel for. The ones who see school as an a escape :(

@walker1891

Errrr to avoid giving it to children if they are an asymptomatic carrier, perhaps?

Errrrrr face shields aren't to protect the child, they are to protect the eyes from the child's droplets.

Errrrr maybe it's just a precaution? Like lots of other things were doing?

isn't better to keep the core education of secondary schools online and view in school activities as opportunities for practicals, arts, mental health, sports, etc? This way we can do the best of both worlds?

I’d much prefer the other way around. It’s the limitation on education that is the issue. Educate children as much as possible.

In the same vein stop splitting the accessibility of education down lines of parents type of work

So why do the children wear masks to protect the nurses then genie?

@walker1891

So why do the children wear masks to protect the nurses then genie?

Precaution?

Same reason we're all washing hands, wearing masks, social distancing.

And why would there be a need for any precaution if there's no evidence children transmit?

@MarshaBradyo

isn't better to keep the core education of secondary schools online and view in school activities as opportunities for practicals, arts, mental health, sports, etc? This way we can do the best of both worlds?

I’d much prefer the other way around. It’s the limitation on education that is the issue. Educate children as much as possible.

In the same vein stop splitting the accessibility of education down lines of parents type of work

But if schools, or at least year groups will have to be starting and stopping all the time, it is the core education that will be damaged.

Everytime a kid shows up with a cough, it will be sent home, without any backup. Meanwhile their peers will keep going.... it will be really difficult for kid and teacher.

@walker1891

And why would there be a need for any precaution if there's no evidence children transmit?

That's what a precaution is? Just in case?

Social distancing, hand washing and wearing masks is taken because we know transmission is a risk. Why implement any of that in a setting - hospital or school if you are confident that children do not transmit as you say.

@walker1891

And why would there be a need for any precaution if there's no evidence children transmit?

Considering there is no concrete evidence either way, it is a precaution.

Why does UK law state that children 11 plus must wear masks in shops and takeaway?

@walker1891

Social distancing, hand washing and wearing masks is taken because we know transmission is a risk. Why implement any of that in a setting - hospital or school if you are confident that children do not transmit as you say.

In a hospital setting you can never be too cautious can you?

I don't see your point. As if hcp wearing PPE in any situation is indicative of anything.