Anyone else in a developing country hit by covid-19?

[ShootsFruitsAndLeaves]

I think people in the UK perhaps should be aware of how far the UK is from the rest of the world, at least parts of it.

Firstly:

A lot of people in the UK seem to think the USA is the stupidest country on earth. This just isn't the case. Yes, there are a lot of crazy people there. But at a minimum a substantial proportion of the population is well-educated.

In developing countries a lot of the country has not graduated secondary school. Most people don't understand basic food hygiene concepts, let alone hope to curb a virus.

Secondly, officially ALL the population is religious (at least that's the case here, in Indonesia). By law. Not everyone practices of course. But religion is more important in society than reason or science. Far more important. Shutting down mosques is seen by many millions as an act of Satan's minions. Many people believe that mass prayer (i.e.: thousands of people gathering in one place) PREVENTS covid-19.

Thirdly: the official death and infection figures are utter bollocks. Under Islamic law a body is buried within 24 hours. Doctors aren't involved with this process unless the death took place in a hospital, which it probably didn't. Christians are a minority but it's not that different except that a nurse or midwife will come along to shoot the corpse up with formaldehyde prior to burial.

I've seen the UK stats and on a MSOA level (around 5,000) people there are hundreds of tests being done per week, so there's a good chance you know whether there is a local outbreak.

Here entire provinces of MILLIONS of people have positive test rates over 40%, but that's because they've only completed 3000 tests for several million people. The rest of the tests are pending often for weeks, and the total number of tests is totally inadequate to get an idea of what is going on.

Sometimes the government goes round places like markets and run antibody tests, which tend to turn up about 15% positive. But they aren't counted as positive tests officially. That needs a swab test. The antibody tests cost about £10, which is over a day's wages. The antibody tests are widely used but antibodies don't show up till after you have had symptoms for a few days. Swab tests cost about £120, which is a lot of money, and there is a small fraction of the swab tests.

The government shut things down for several months, which did slow things a bit, but except for a very few areas mosques were never closed and the virus slow burned for several months. Now everything is open again, and the virus is probably everywhere, but who knows!? Because if they don't test on a local level, there are no official death stats available there's just no way of telling.

But people are travelling all over the place en masse, doing things like karaoke in pubs, going on land train things (a few trucks shackled together with shiny lights and about 100 adults + children inside).

The economy of Bali (specifically) depends on tourism, and they want to open the doors for international tourists in September.

Oh and the healthcare system is horrific:

firstly there are some of the lowest number of hospital beds in Asia
then there are some of the fewest ICU places
there are very few ventilators
a lot of people are terrified of being diagnosed with covid because it means:

1. you get sent off to a covid hospital far away where your family might not see you again
2. the hospitals are mostly private and run for fat profits by evil cheating money-grabbing commission-driven scumbags (yes, the US has much bigger medical bills, but unless you've dealt with completely uncontrolled capitalism in a developing country you won't understand the extent to which the people running hospitals will happily say 'you pay us NOW or we will not treat you and you will die', and this happens frequently).
3. the government has tried to bring a national health system in the past few years, which is a start, BUT the (mostly privately owned) hospitals are NOT happy because they can't pump you full of useless patent drugs on fat commissions. So they seek opportunities to chuck you out. That has come with covid. Patients coming in will be told to pay for a private test (even though they have national insurance) or leave. The test is actually an antibody test, but the proportion of people that understand the significance of that is tiny, because the hospital just wants to chuck them out on the street

The antibody test tests for two different antibodies, one which is a short-lasting and one which is a longer-lasting antibody. If the first antibody is absent this might indicate that the patient had covid but do not any longer.

But the hospital doesn't care. They tell you to fuck off home and isolate, or be sent to a commandeered covid hospital. Once in the covid hospital you will be given a swab test. Except if you ask for the results from the lab rather than just relying on their statement that it's positive, you are told "it's a state secret" [actual quote]. So your relative might be locked up in hospital far away from your home for several weeks (at central government expense), on an assurance that they are positive.

And then after this happens your family is supposed to be tested, except this might or might not happen, and if it does happen it will happen several days later. In the mean time you might have isolated at home, except why the fuck would you because you need to earn a living and the government's certainly not giving any hand outs.

Of course there are rules to stop the spread. Some places say to wear masks. Bearing in mind that MOST 13 year olds drive to school on motor bikes, and without helmets, what do you think the chances of people following these rules are? That's right: none whatsoever.

I'm sure there are developing countries that are much more disciplined generally. But when you consider mid/low GDP, low tax base, a population who routinely believes in ghosts and spirits, massive corruption, childhood malnutrition, etc. etc., anyone who thinks that there's a chance to bring an out-of-control pandemic under control after several months of weak measures which have now been largely stopped failed to do that, is simply dreaming.

So when a goodly proportion of the population can't afford to stop working, a goodly and very politically influential (and backed by street paramilitaries) proportion thinks that going to the mosque is more important than stopping the virus, a goodly proportion is used to ignoring inconvenient rules , a goodly proportion doesn't have a clue how or why the virus is spread. And then you have a government and administrative infrastructure that generally is best known for its ingenuity at corruption and theft, and not at all for its administrative prowess. And that government is not known for transparency and likely lacks both wherewithal and intent to try and work out what is really going on.

I'm sure some developing countries have done better, but this is the reality here....

Jeez that sounds horrendous, are you an ex-pat in Bali OP?

Expat but not in Bali. I'm not sure what's going on in Bali exactly. But they did spend some time trying to say the only people who had died were foreigners who were already ill

Also had some yoga loons try to claim that the Balinese had natural genetic immunity and similar idiocy.

Saving grace is younger population.

But in terms of coming here for covid-free holiday . Forget it before a vaccine.

Gosh that sounds horrible. I hope you stay safe.

Certainly is not a good time to have a longing for 'exotic' destinations....

This is fascinating to read, although not that surprising.

I think most people in the UK could do with a bit of perspective like this.

None of that surprises me. I'm amazed on a daily basis that the numbers of infections/deaths provided by countries to the WHO are taken as gospel when surely most of them are utter bollocks. Most developing nations don't have the infrastructure to count and record numbers in a fast-moving pandemic. How on earth we're supposed to trust the numbers from places like Mexico, Brazil, South Africa, etc, is beyond me. We know the numbers are no more than a suggestion of what's really going on and that's before we take into account the nations for whom secrecy is the norm. So the countries that have the best developed systems are the ones being slated for having the worst epidemics (USA, UK, France, Italy, Spain),while we're led to believe that many developing countries have hardly any cases at all. Yeah, right! There isn't even an internationally agreed method for counting deaths FFS.

Thanks 4 info, OP

That sounds tough @ShootsFruitsAndLeaves. As you say there's generally a younger population, which may help mean less deaths proportionally, but does mean herd immunity is the only likely end in sight. Healthcare can be woefully bad in some countries and I doubt we'll ever get a handle on what the worldwide death rates have been. I thought most people do understand that cases and death rates are far higher in much of the world than described, but perhaps not.

It’s madness, there were people on mumsnet saying how well India have handled it 🙄 With 1.4 billion people it’s impossible to test everyone. 800 million poor living on less than £2 a day. People are dying from coronvirus who will never see a hospital or will be tested.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-53510307

Agree that it's madness that people say Europe has the worst numbers when half the world hasn't got a clue about its own figures

Another example, friends (currently in the UK) reported that one African country declared that everyone had to stay at home, not leaving the house for 5 days, which was enforced, at least in some areas. They were then allowed a few hours to go shopping. So pretty much every family had at least one member on the (crowded) streets during that time, some of whom were doubtless Covid positive - some won't have known, some will have been desperate to feed their family, so will have gone out anyway. A more effective way of spreading the virus (small window for everyone to be out) is hard to imagine.... Quite what was going through the minds of those in government I have no idea.

I have no idea about Africa, but there are a lot of thought processes that I find illogical. It's like there's no point in even having the conversation because the way of thinking is so completely different that it's like you're speaking in another language [I'm not.]

Me, to university professor 'Why do you think Saudi Arabia closed the mosques for covid-19, but Indonesia did not'

He: 'Indonesia is a godly country, it's in the constitution'

Me: 'And Saudi Arabia is not a godly country?'

He: 'I went to Saudi Arabia [on hajji/umroh]. Saudis spend all their time in the mosque. If they didn't close the mosques then they wouldn't go outside. Exercise is important for covid-19'

Me: 'Ok but don't you worry about catching covid-19, being in your 60s, do you think you are at risk going to the mosque?'

He: 'It's only for 15 minutes for salat, and an hour for the sermon on Fridays'

Me: ........

Thank you OP,

It's really interesting to hear what is happening in places very different from our own.

Your young population is a huge potential benefit and I hope it works that way

This says it all. I don’t know how we will control this virus unless we test everyone coming into the country.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/53521563/the-gravedigger-s-truth-hidden-coronavirus-deaths

I find it really upsetting that this pandemic has been spread by the rich - I.e. it has been spread so far round the world by those who can afford international travel, yet in many developing countries it is the poor who will suffer the most.

@IcyApril that is so true, spread by the rich, paid for by the poor.

This doesn't surprise me at all. All our "preventative measures" are very costly. Many countries don't have the financial resources for this. Add an element of culture and it's a very scary position to be in.

I have just returned to UK from Malaysia, and while I totally believe the Malaysia numbers (when I left I think they had 121 deaths total) I do not believe anything really coming out of Indonesia, India, Philippines (those are the most obvious, I would not want to be in Cambodia, Laos etc either because their hospital infrastructure was really poor before this situation) regarding covid19 numbers.
It's a mess. Yes, the UK fucked up the beginning of the pandemic here, they should have watched the rest of the world more closely no doubt.
But now, I feel there is a strong hold on what's happening and going forward I feel more positive here. For the most part you can trust the news and the numbers and I feel safe here (yes I'm aware of the PHE counting etc but still you cannot compare this to the complete lack of education/medical knowledge in these developing countries, it's a different planet, I'm sure the numbers are horrific in actuality).
I also would not be choosing to travel to many countries in that category (developing) right now and actually I'm amazed that Bupa et al are still covering expats in these locations.
If I was taking up a new position in August I would be checking and double checking all the medical coverage very very very carefully.

Yes the response is very much based on the individual country.

For example Vietnam shut things down early and they now have cases coming back

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/27/vietnam-evacuates-80000-tourists-amid-new-covid-19-cases-in-danang

I'm not sure what their testing infrastructure is like, but their response has been swift and decisive in each case. So you'd want to know the level of ongoing testing that they do, but it's possible that it's generally low risk despite being a lower-middle income income, because it doesn't need to cost THAT much to test randomly across the country and then respond when you pick stuff up.

Malaysia is nothing like Indonesia as a government despite the population being ethnically and religiously similar and speaking the same language.

An mass gathering of an Islamic proselytising group in March spread thousands of cases.

www.scmp.com/week-asia/explained/article/3075968/how-coronavirus-spread-malaysias-tabligh-islamic-gathering

These cases were I believe detected in Brunei. Around a thousand returned from Malaysia to Sumatra and while it was obvious that a few hundred were likely infected little or nothing was done to trace them, except possibly antibody tests (which aren't effective for recent infections), and even that too little and too late.

The same sect had an event in South Sulawesi around the same time which similarly caused thousands of cases.

Attendees from southern Thailand (which is mostly Muslim) were passed as covid negative leaving Jakarta. But in Thailand dozens from a single flight were found to be infected.

jakartaglobe.id/news/dozens-of-thais-test-positive-for-covid19-after-returning-from-tabligh-islamic-gathering-in-indonesia/

Singapore detected a case in their population from a woman who returned from visiting a relative in hospital in Jakarta in February with 'pneumonia', which logical people would conclude was likely covid-19.

At the same time the government was dismissing as Western propaganda the blindingly obvious fact that there must be covid cases in Indonesia due to many direct flights from Wuhan.

www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/02/14/its-meant-to-help-harvard-professor-responds-after-government-dismisses-study-on-undetected-coronavirus-cases.html

When students returning from religious schools in Aceh to Malaysia were found to be infected with covid (they found this in Malaysia!) the response on social media was 'this is not possible, we are the most religious people in Indonesia, they must have caught this elsewhere'.

Even when tests are done you might get something like this happening

www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/06/28/passenger-allowed-on-jakarta-sorong-flight-despite-testing-positive-for-covid-19.html

where a passenger was tested before boarding a local (four hour!) flight, found positive, but allowed to board anyway

A friend has a possible broken hip (he's in his 60s and has brain cancer). He has been in bed for two months as a result and has not gone to the hospital because he's terrified that the place is riddled with covid-19. It's only getting worse now.

I do think some developing countries may have low risk.

But you don't want to get sick in many such countries even if the risk is low, because the medical care is really bad.

I don't trust the doctors here an inch.

And I don't trust their infection control procedures.

This nurse/paramedic went viral because he posted he was 'doping' to boost his immune system from covid

twitter.com/dahcahyadi/status/1244828496540532736

This is a vitamin drip, which is useless, but a very popular snake oil treatment (often in injection format).

Proper PPE would be more useful.

I really believe that covid-19 is on a low priority while countries still struggle to control other infectious diseases like Typhoid, Tuberculosis, Hepatitis and HIV.
And it's not just Asia that suffers in this way. I was meant to travel to Latin America.
The situation there is very similar to what OP describes... cultural barriers, poor health care provision and over half the population in poverty. At the same time a destination for foreign tourists, that is an an important part of the economy. Sadly this travelling has helped with the spread of covid-19.

Thanks to everyone who has posted on this thread, I am finding it so interesting.
I wish there was more on the news about what’s going on in the rest of the world at the moment (rather than all those pages devoted to the royal family).

It's really really interesting, horrifying too of course, but yes I'm very interested to hear what's happening in countries never covered on the news here.

OP hope you're ok and your posts are very

Insightful! Sorry x

Not a developing country but a friend in SA recently had Covid-19. I asked him where he got it or thought he got it. He asked if I had seen the news? Have I been living in a cave? The last I heard in mainstream media was that they were having a strict lockdown. Its absolutely ripped through Capetown.

Just had to deal with the burial of a patient .

Basically the patient was in the hospital for about four weeks. Hospital don't like to give out information and when I asked for originals of lab swab test they refused saying it was a state secret.

Anyway eventually the patient acquired thrombocytopenia, which I'm assuming is immune thrombocytopenia from the infection, rather than related to medication. The blood tests showed 55 billion per litre, and they said they needed a platelet transfusion, but the blood type was AB which is rare. I was suspicious of this as the normal cut off is 50 with bleeding and 10 otherwise

The nurse seemed to think it was whole blood, which made no sense, so I was suspicious. But it was apheresis. We found a donor but her haemoglobin was 12, so she was rejected. It turned out there was blood in urine , so there was slightly more justification for the transfusion .

Anyway they found a donor from the hospital itself but she died shortly after the transfusion .

The latest regulations say that funerals are supposed to be in accordance with religion and culture, but I was immediately suspicious. We had to go chasing after the ambulance. Supposedly there was a team waiting to receive the body and immediately bury it.

In the mean time I was told the Catholic church said she couldn't buried in the graveyard . I looked up the canon law which said that Catholics must be buried in the parish graveyard.

When we got to the appointed anonymous graveyard at 4am there was no one there . So we went to the Catholic graveyard and started ineffectually scraping . Then we went back to the anonymous graveyard . Eventually we went to the church seminary (?) and met the priest

He was like every stereotype of heartless Catholic priests.

He said 'our bishop and pastor caught covid here in this seminary . Now people don't want to come to church. Before we had 1000 now we have 50, because of covid. So I have to consider what they will think if a covid patient is buried here. that''s why I rejected this.'

So it was clear that he wasn't going to accept my argument that a woman who went to church everyday should be buried in said church, not least according to church law.

So we had to go with 'she wasn't a covid patient''

This was partly true in that she had been negative for about a week , but was still breathing with oxygen and presumably the immune thrombocytopenia caused by covid .

But arguing this wasn't a covid case was the only way to get this done.

So now they are digging the grave.

Although they wouldn't let her have the spot next to her husband because the argument was 'he died four years ago, and we want to dig the graves up after 10 years, so if we let her use that space we won't be able to dig that grave up on time'. So she's a couple of rows along.