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Covid

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Anyone else in a developing country hit by covid-19?

45 replies

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 26/07/2020 10:48

I think people in the UK perhaps should be aware of how far the UK is from the rest of the world, at least parts of it.

Firstly:

A lot of people in the UK seem to think the USA is the stupidest country on earth. This just isn't the case. Yes, there are a lot of crazy people there. But at a minimum a substantial proportion of the population is well-educated.

In developing countries a lot of the country has not graduated secondary school. Most people don't understand basic food hygiene concepts, let alone hope to curb a virus.

Secondly, officially ALL the population is religious (at least that's the case here, in Indonesia). By law. Not everyone practices of course. But religion is more important in society than reason or science. Far more important. Shutting down mosques is seen by many millions as an act of Satan's minions. Many people believe that mass prayer (i.e.: thousands of people gathering in one place) PREVENTS covid-19.

Thirdly: the official death and infection figures are utter bollocks. Under Islamic law a body is buried within 24 hours. Doctors aren't involved with this process unless the death took place in a hospital, which it probably didn't. Christians are a minority but it's not that different except that a nurse or midwife will come along to shoot the corpse up with formaldehyde prior to burial.

I've seen the UK stats and on a MSOA level (around 5,000) people there are hundreds of tests being done per week, so there's a good chance you know whether there is a local outbreak.

Here entire provinces of MILLIONS of people have positive test rates over 40%, but that's because they've only completed 3000 tests for several million people. The rest of the tests are pending often for weeks, and the total number of tests is totally inadequate to get an idea of what is going on.

Sometimes the government goes round places like markets and run antibody tests, which tend to turn up about 15% positive. But they aren't counted as positive tests officially. That needs a swab test. The antibody tests cost about £10, which is over a day's wages. The antibody tests are widely used but antibodies don't show up till after you have had symptoms for a few days. Swab tests cost about £120, which is a lot of money, and there is a small fraction of the swab tests.

The government shut things down for several months, which did slow things a bit, but except for a very few areas mosques were never closed and the virus slow burned for several months. Now everything is open again, and the virus is probably everywhere, but who knows!? Because if they don't test on a local level, there are no official death stats available there's just no way of telling.

But people are travelling all over the place en masse, doing things like karaoke in pubs, going on land train things (a few trucks shackled together with shiny lights and about 100 adults + children inside).

The economy of Bali (specifically) depends on tourism, and they want to open the doors for international tourists in September.

Oh and the healthcare system is horrific:

firstly there are some of the lowest number of hospital beds in Asia
then there are some of the fewest ICU places
there are very few ventilators
a lot of people are terrified of being diagnosed with covid because it means:

  1. you get sent off to a covid hospital far away where your family might not see you again
  2. the hospitals are mostly private and run for fat profits by evil cheating money-grabbing commission-driven scumbags (yes, the US has much bigger medical bills, but unless you've dealt with completely uncontrolled capitalism in a developing country you won't understand the extent to which the people running hospitals will happily say 'you pay us NOW or we will not treat you and you will die', and this happens frequently).
  3. the government has tried to bring a national health system in the past few years, which is a start, BUT the (mostly privately owned) hospitals are NOT happy because they can't pump you full of useless patent drugs on fat commissions. So they seek opportunities to chuck you out. That has come with covid. Patients coming in will be told to pay for a private test (even though they have national insurance) or leave. The test is actually an antibody test, but the proportion of people that understand the significance of that is tiny, because the hospital just wants to chuck them out on the street

The antibody test tests for two different antibodies, one which is a short-lasting and one which is a longer-lasting antibody. If the first antibody is absent this might indicate that the patient had covid but do not any longer.

But the hospital doesn't care. They tell you to fuck off home and isolate, or be sent to a commandeered covid hospital. Once in the covid hospital you will be given a swab test. Except if you ask for the results from the lab rather than just relying on their statement that it's positive, you are told "it's a state secret" [actual quote]. So your relative might be locked up in hospital far away from your home for several weeks (at central government expense), on an assurance that they are positive.

And then after this happens your family is supposed to be tested, except this might or might not happen, and if it does happen it will happen several days later. In the mean time you might have isolated at home, except why the fuck would you because you need to earn a living and the government's certainly not giving any hand outs.

Of course there are rules to stop the spread. Some places say to wear masks. Bearing in mind that MOST 13 year olds drive to school on motor bikes, and without helmets, what do you think the chances of people following these rules are? That's right: none whatsoever.

I'm sure there are developing countries that are much more disciplined generally. But when you consider mid/low GDP, low tax base, a population who routinely believes in ghosts and spirits, massive corruption, childhood malnutrition, etc. etc., anyone who thinks that there's a chance to bring an out-of-control pandemic under control after several months of weak measures which have now been largely stopped failed to do that, is simply dreaming.

So when a goodly proportion of the population can't afford to stop working, a goodly and very politically influential (and backed by street paramilitaries) proportion thinks that going to the mosque is more important than stopping the virus, a goodly proportion is used to ignoring inconvenient rules , a goodly proportion doesn't have a clue how or why the virus is spread. And then you have a government and administrative infrastructure that generally is best known for its ingenuity at corruption and theft, and not at all for its administrative prowess. And that government is not known for transparency and likely lacks both wherewithal and intent to try and work out what is really going on.

I'm sure some developing countries have done better, but this is the reality here....

OP posts:
ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 10/08/2020 03:12

The pastor had a lot more bureaucratic bullshit.

'why have you arrived at 7 in the morning '
Because we've been driving around with a coffin since 4am.

'are any of you a member of this branch of the church'
No, the deceased was.

'Why have you not brought the community organizer responsible for this area ?'
because we just arrived with a corpse that has to be buried asap

OP posts:
alwayscrashinginthesamecar1 · 10/08/2020 04:43

I was in Bali in December before all this started. Beautiful as it is, its not where I would like to be right now. A relative of mine flew into Bali from Sydney just as everything in Australia was shutting down (despite my rather firm advice not to). He got stuck there for a week as he wasn't able to fly back to Australia (not a citizen or PR), and had to pay for very expensive alternative flights back to the UK. He was shitting himself when he realised that he had invalidated his travel insurance by flying against FCO advice! Much as I loved Bali, I think it will be a long time before I am back.

longtimecomin · 10/08/2020 04:54

Really useful post op. Thank you

HopelessSemantics · 10/08/2020 06:05

I'd fully expect the UK to be doing better than somewhere like Indonesia, frankly. It's hardly comparing like with like, is it?

The UK is a highly developed country with a large GDP and a well educated population, developed science sector, stable government etc. Indonesia, as you've pointed, is not.

Compare the UK to Japan or Korea which are far more similar, but let's not go around thinking well it's not as bad as Indonesia, so that's ok.

Why are British people so passive and accepting of utterly shit treatment by their government? Boris Johnson could come round and personally cough in your face and people would still say "well, at least he washed his hands afteewards."

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 10/08/2020 06:09

Here's a decent article about why Indonesia has done so badly

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1868103420935561

OP posts:
MissEliza · 10/08/2020 06:31

Very interesting Op. My dh is from Egypt and he and his family seem to actually believe they are doing better there than here. This is despite the fact that even they acknowledge their government is run by corrupt liars. As we live in the U.K., that shouldn't really be my problem but I'm having to deal with a lot of emotional blackmail because I absolutely refused to go there this summer, even before the quarantine rules were introduced. Apparently I'm being unreasonable because there are so few cases and deaths Hmm. Well if you do so few tests, you'll have only a few cases.
Ds2 has asthma and the thought of him developing Covid there terrifies me. I just can't imagine travelling there at the moment. It just beggars belief that people can be so ignorant or maybe arrogant that they are 'doing better' when they are run by such corrupt and inefficient governments.
MIL has upped the emotional blackmail recently as her niece is visiting Egypt from Germany. She can't understand why she'll come when we won't. I can't understand why someone would place their family at risk. Although Germany requires people to quarantine on return from Egypt, she is planning to return just before schools go back and put the kids straight into school. I hope she gets caught.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 10/08/2020 07:16

Yes.

I am just sitting in the deceased's house and they are swearing she died of GERD, and she couldn't possibly have had covid otherwise the whole street would be locked down

The fact is there were three positive tests although one negative finally.

The coffin was wrapped in plastic and people seemed to be terrified. I'm wondering what they were scared of burying a coffin in blazing sunshine.

OP posts:
MissEliza · 10/08/2020 08:49

Gosh Op you really are going through a lot. Take care of yourself.

SugarHour · 10/08/2020 09:34

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

Just had to deal with the burial of a patient .

Basically the patient was in the hospital for about four weeks. Hospital don't like to give out information and when I asked for originals of lab swab test they refused saying it was a state secret.

Anyway eventually the patient acquired thrombocytopenia, which I'm assuming is immune thrombocytopenia from the infection, rather than related to medication. The blood tests showed 55 billion per litre, and they said they needed a platelet transfusion, but the blood type was AB which is rare. I was suspicious of this as the normal cut off is 50 with bleeding and 10 otherwise

The nurse seemed to think it was whole blood, which made no sense, so I was suspicious. But it was apheresis. We found a donor but her haemoglobin was 12, so she was rejected. It turned out there was blood in urine , so there was slightly more justification for the transfusion .

Anyway they found a donor from the hospital itself but she died shortly after the transfusion .

The latest regulations say that funerals are supposed to be in accordance with religion and culture, but I was immediately suspicious. We had to go chasing after the ambulance. Supposedly there was a team waiting to receive the body and immediately bury it.

In the mean time I was told the Catholic church said she couldn't buried in the graveyard . I looked up the canon law which said that Catholics must be buried in the parish graveyard.

When we got to the appointed anonymous graveyard at 4am there was no one there . So we went to the Catholic graveyard and started ineffectually scraping . Then we went back to the anonymous graveyard . Eventually we went to the church seminary (?) and met the priest

He was like every stereotype of heartless Catholic priests.

He said 'our bishop and pastor caught covid here in this seminary . Now people don't want to come to church. Before we had 1000 now we have 50, because of covid. So I have to consider what they will think if a covid patient is buried here. that''s why I rejected this.'

So it was clear that he wasn't going to accept my argument that a woman who went to church everyday should be buried in said church, not least according to church law.

So we had to go with 'she wasn't a covid patient''

This was partly true in that she had been negative for about a week , but was still breathing with oxygen and presumably the immune thrombocytopenia caused by covid .

But arguing this wasn't a covid case was the only way to get this done.

So now they are digging the grave.

Although they wouldn't let her have the spot next to her husband because the argument was 'he died four years ago, and we want to dig the graves up after 10 years, so if we let her use that space we won't be able to dig that grave up on time'. So she's a couple of rows along.

I am WTF at them digging graves up after 10 years! What do they do with the remains then? I don't know how long it takes for a body to decompose but there must at least be a skeleton left?!
HopelessSemantics · 10/08/2020 09:55

@SugarHour they usually dig graves up in Germany too, but I think it's after 30 years. If you want to keep the body down there, you have to apply and pay extra.

Once they've dug them up, they cremate them and reuse the plot.

German efficiency.

SugarHour · 10/08/2020 10:06

[quote HopelessSemantics]@SugarHour they usually dig graves up in Germany too, but I think it's after 30 years. If you want to keep the body down there, you have to apply and pay extra.

Once they've dug them up, they cremate them and reuse the plot.

German efficiency.[/quote]
That seems fair enough, although a bit strange that under those rules anyone wouldn't just choose cremation in the first place.

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 10/08/2020 17:15

Apparently there was a subtext. They had bought the grave 4 years ago as a double plot for say £450 rather than £300. Anyway they weren't allowed to use the rest of the plot, so the subtext was that they have to buy a new one, possibly with some sort of discount .

They were building some sort of concrete shelving type arrangement I think for bones dug up? But there would be an extra charge for that.

OP posts:
PaundryLouder · 10/08/2020 20:19

@ShootsFruitsAndLeaves

Apparently there was a subtext. They had bought the grave 4 years ago as a double plot for say £450 rather than £300. Anyway they weren't allowed to use the rest of the plot, so the subtext was that they have to buy a new one, possibly with some sort of discount .

They were building some sort of concrete shelving type arrangement I think for bones dug up? But there would be an extra charge for that.

So interesting. That makes sense about the bone shelves, but I can't help but wonder about those whose families couldn't pay...

This whole thread shows however much we moan about the UK being disorganised and corrupt it could be WAY worse

ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 11/08/2020 07:20

I got some more clarification. Apparently they have got subscriptions from all the parishioners to pay for the bone shelves. And the bones are going to be arranged in smaller coffins rather than out in the open.

Apparently the graveyard used to be for priests & nuns but they just opened it up recently, so when they bought the first grave it was supposed to be forever.

Anyway they are busy persuading people the death wasn't covid , but there was someone who just run past and it seems like they think the house is some sort of plague pit, even though the deceased hasn't been here for a month so any sort of covid risk is probably higher anywhere else .

Normally they have an open coffin reception before the burial and that's when people come round. But because the burial took place immediately that's not happened. And people seem to believe it's covid and are staying away for that reason.

OP posts:
ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 11/08/2020 07:21

So no extra payment for the bone shelf for the already buried, but they will need to arrange the exhumation of their relatives to be moved . Presumably also for the new coffin

OP posts:
ShootsFruitsAndLeaves · 11/08/2020 07:27

Apparently in Bali the local residents heard of the planned cremation of a covid victim.

And they were worried about the smoke (!) from the cremation and stopped the cremation. It's now been done but they say they should have been informed cremation was allowed by government protocol for covid victims and that it did not pose a risk.

coconuts.co/bali/news/bali-residents-protest-cremation-of-covid-19-victim-over-alleged-lack-of-notice/

OP posts:
feelingverylazytoday · 11/08/2020 12:34

@HopelessSemantics

I'd fully expect the UK to be doing better than somewhere like Indonesia, frankly. It's hardly comparing like with like, is it?

The UK is a highly developed country with a large GDP and a well educated population, developed science sector, stable government etc. Indonesia, as you've pointed, is not.

Compare the UK to Japan or Korea which are far more similar, but let's not go around thinking well it's not as bad as Indonesia, so that's ok.

Why are British people so passive and accepting of utterly shit treatment by their government? Boris Johnson could come round and personally cough in your face and people would still say "well, at least he washed his hands afteewards."

It's not really a matter of comparing. Some people like to make out that the UK (well, England really) is the worst place in the world, the English are all ignorant drunken twats and Boris Johnson is worse than Hitler. Denying and minimising human deaths and suffering in parts of the developing world to further that narrative is a really shit thing to do. It's possible to accept that our government made some mistakes, and at the same time acknowledge that some countries will suffer far more than we will.
psychomath · 11/08/2020 13:46

[quote HopelessSemantics]@SugarHour they usually dig graves up in Germany too, but I think it's after 30 years. If you want to keep the body down there, you have to apply and pay extra.

Once they've dug them up, they cremate them and reuse the plot.

German efficiency.[/quote]
Now I'm wondering what they do here! Presumably there's no set time limit as cemeteries have loads of old graves, but at the same time there's nowhere near enough space to bury everyone Confused I know some re-use of plots definitely happens, but I wonder how they decide which ones to dig up?

starfish4 · 11/08/2020 14:23

We moan in this country how things could have been done differently, lack of money/healthcare, but everyone presenting with Covid has had a bed. A massive amount of money has been thrown into the NHS, job and financial support, testing now for everyone, vaccines, we have regular news media which helps us keep informed about what what's happening and what we can do individually to help, hot running water etc. Yes, we've made mistakes and hopefully the government and us are learning from those, but we are so lucky compared to many, and I for one appreciate that.

PaundryLouder · 11/08/2020 14:31

@psychomath cremation is quite common here, maybe that reduces pressure on cemeteries?

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