Will there be prosecutions for negligence in schools because of inadequate PPE?

[Masquecharade]

Posing a hypothetical (and to be frank, quite unpleasant) question here for the lawyers - if, in September, schools and businesses are back in fairly normal operation and cases increase, if a child was to become seriously unwell because of an outbreak at a school, would it be possible to sue the school itself? Would Governors/LEA’s be liable?

For the sake of expediency, assume the child has no other p2p contact apart from school (no shops/clubs and both parents work from home) and the track and trace system has identified school as the outbreak centre linked from another outbreak elsewhere.

Maybe some of us do have people at risk living with us. Could also be why parents have been begging for schools to do more about those sent purposely into school ill.

Parents have had to deal with this for years. Look at the nut stuff, the absolute outrage from some parents that their child cannot eat nuts at lunch.

That has nothing to do with schools. They call parents and told basically tough, what you want me to do about it, I'm too far away or whatever. That's what emergency childcare is for. Those in working in schools cannot take time off other than to arrange emergency childcare either.

Of course these things do happen sporadically. For some it's a regular thing, bug after bug after bug.

Although if schools can start being stricter, Nit control also has to be up there as well.

Donohue and Stevenson is the case about slugs in beer :)

Why would someone sue the school?

The government gives the guidance to schools on how to be COVID secure.

And it specifically states no PPE needed except where usual practice to do so.

If someone doesn't want their child to be at rock or catching COVID they should de register them and shield them continuously at home from anything.

The government gives the guidance to schools on how to be COVID secure.

Which is mysteriously different to the advice given to all other workplaces and specifically tells heads they can’t put in any measures to increase safety if it requires more room.

You could argue that a parent has recklessly endangered life by sending and unwell child to school but what about the child or adult that was infected as a result? Did the parent of the infected child agree to the risk of infection by sending the child to school knowing that the virus was circulating? Or, the adult infected run the a similar risk.
Is the onus not on the vulnerable to take reasonable measures to protect themselves?

What if you aren’t allowed to take those measures?

What measures?

Measures could be not putting yourself or a child in harms way by staying away from the school.

Teachers can’t stay away from school?

@noblegiraffe

The government gives the guidance to schools on how to be COVID secure.

Which is mysteriously different to the advice given to all other workplaces and specifically tells heads they can’t put in any measures to increase safety if it requires more room.

Oh that is nasty of them to put that in place. I had no idea they have blocked heads in this way.

What other differences have they implemented?

They can if they feel that ‘at risk’. May not be practical in many ways but it’s a life choice.

@noblegiraffe

The government gives the guidance to schools on how to be COVID secure.

Which is mysteriously different to the advice given to all other workplaces and specifically tells heads they can’t put in any measures to increase safety if it requires more room.

Well yes noble no didn't say it was good!

But it's no more a schools fault if they follow guidelines if there's a case than a shop or restaurants.

I've only read SS guidance because that relates to my workplace.

State schools do not have the money to spend on legal fees etc. The cost of PPE and following 60 odd pages of Dfe guidelines is forcing some schools to make sacrifices elsewhere in their budgets.

I reckon trips will take a hit this year. Some teachers already refuse to take trips because of 'blame culture' and the very detailed risk assessments that have to be filled out. Now adding covid into the equation will make trips even more difficult

@StaffAssociationRepresentative

State schools do not have the money to spend on legal fees etc. The cost of PPE and following 60 odd pages of Dfe guidelines is forcing some schools to make sacrifices elsewhere in their budgets.

I reckon trips will take a hit this year. Some teachers already refuse to take trips because of 'blame culture' and the very detailed risk assessments that have to be filled out. Now adding covid into the equation will make trips even more difficult

IIrc one of the considerations for the consultation was about the exam related trips and to scrap that part of the exam for next year.

Many schools in London use public transport, could be the case across the country. My day it was hire a coach for everything as no public transport !

Last RA I did was about 3 years ago, what a pita it was. Everything single detail for pupils and staff, travel details and back up plans, does it have a loo etc. That alone would be enough to put me off trying to plan for this.

Secondary school who pays for the masks because they are obviously over 11 and need them to travel and go inside buildings as visitors 🤣

Cannot see museum workshop staff happy either in those often tiny rooms they use. No more looking and getting involved with the relics.

Lous, I see your point. Do we, as parents, automatically waive any right to redress when we send a child through the gates as the child is in the school as loco parentis?

Would a court (if it could be proved that a school had discussed the need for PPE and dismissed it) be liable?

The school do owe a duty of care to the children. If the school had not followed any recommended guidelines that could be a starting point.

Where the use of PPE was required it should still be continued.

So I would expect schools to look at their individual requirements rather than a blanket yes/no.

@Masquecharade

Lous, I see your point. Do we, as parents, automatically waive any right to redress when we send a child through the gates as the child is in the school as loco parentis?

Would a court (if it could be proved that a school had discussed the need for PPE and dismissed it) be liable?

If the child was sent through the door knowingly ill by the parent, which is often the case, I cannot see how the school would be responsible.

Most children will tell you themselves they were ill in same way since they left the day before. Even on the way to school, and shhh oh you will be fine, quick clean up and off they go through the gates.

If schools were to be sued, every single detail of the child's activities outside of school prior to that could be looked into.
Oh Miss Smith, seems like your mate Dave posted on FB that he has whatever, what was your contact like etc.

And of course, if we ever get it back, track and bloody trace.

I think that it may get to the point where you will have to sign a disclaimer if you send your child to school so absolve then
From Any responsibility of them catching Covid.

In my opinion, the blame would be with the government not the schools as that is the body who says schools have to be open, fines will be imposed and no virtually no extra help will be given to facilitate this.

I'm anxious at the moment as I will be very heavily pregnant in September. According to the government, it's back to work as usual, according to the midwife it's dangerous to be in an enclosed space with that many people and no PPE, according to the unions I should categorically be working from home. Whatever happens though, I would never blame the school as they are being fantastic and are currently writing a risk assessment that is trying to make sense of all the conflicting advice. I'm hoping that they allow me in as I would love a few month ps of normality...albeit with a face visor!

@canigooutyet yep we are a south west London school and use public transport wherever we can. I guess we will scrap trips for a while - bubbles, staff-student ratios, cover requirements will make the things a right pita. Coaches are so expensive - maybe more so if there is any SD requirements. The deputy in charge of the calendar has sent out nothing on trips - guess it is a question of wait and see.

Coach costs are insane, used to think I could just book a load of ticket for travel express and it'd be cheaper!! Any new staff that wouldn't believe it, here you go there's the list, there's the details get phoning 😂

Oh gosh yes, interim timetables should have been sent out now for residentials etc.

Swimming, local library, supermarket, parks, sports events,farms etc never even thought about them!! Oh no and panto trip in December for primary. Basically most of the fun stuff the pupils enjoy but bloody hard work.

Yea I know, that's months away. People said that around the Easter holidays they would all be back in by the end of May. Months away here we still are.

Got more chances of predicting the weather than the future in schools.

Yep no theatre trips either. At my current school there is a real bun fight to get an overseas trip especially for sixth form but I guess there will be none next year.

The school year will be nothing like normal

I’ve actually heard it all now. Sueing a school for your child catching Covid? Have people lost their fucking minds?

Does the existing health and safety legislation apply to schools as workplaces or are these abandoned where risks come from pupils (customers) rather than buildings or other staff as parents have the right to deregister pupils (customers)?

Are the school/LA/Governors legally liable if they can't prove they have adhered to h&s legislation (because legislation doesn't exist) if an individual (say staff) is infected by other staff and suffers loss of earnings/long term health conditions/death?

Are employers in general legally liable if they insist it is safe but can't back this up by reference to what is legally required?

Does anyone know? Beyond 'it is my sincere hope'?

Do parents forfeit any legal redress if they send their D.C. into school before any of this is known?

Other countries in Europe are now facing increased spread even though they got infection rates lower before easing restrictions but it won't happen here. Just like the UK wouldn't see the same infection/death rates as Italy. No that never happened - turns out we were worse hit. But it will be different now because ... hope. Wasn't this the same 'strategy' as in the spring?

Does the existing health and safety legislation apply to schools as workplaces or are these abandoned where risks come from pupils (customers) rather than buildings or other staff as parents have the right to deregister pupils (customers)?

Are the school/LA/Governors legally liable if they can't prove they have adhered to h&s legislation (because legislation doesn't exist) if an individual (say staff) is infected by other staff and suffers loss of earnings/long term health conditions/death?

Are employers in general legally liable if they insist it is safe but can't back this up by reference to what is legally required?

Does anyone know? Beyond 'it is my sincere hope'?

Do parents forfeit any legal redress if they send their D.C. into school before any of this is known?

Other countries in Europe are now facing increased spread even though they got infection rates lower before easing restrictions but it won't happen here. Just like the UK wouldn't see the same infection/death rates as Italy. No that never happened - turns out we were worse hit. But it will be different now because ... hope. Wasn't this the same 'strategy' as in the spring?