Will there be prosecutions for negligence in schools because of inadequate PPE?

[Masquecharade]

Posing a hypothetical (and to be frank, quite unpleasant) question here for the lawyers - if, in September, schools and businesses are back in fairly normal operation and cases increase, if a child was to become seriously unwell because of an outbreak at a school, would it be possible to sue the school itself? Would Governors/LEA’s be liable?

For the sake of expediency, assume the child has no other p2p contact apart from school (no shops/clubs and both parents work from home) and the track and trace system has identified school as the outbreak centre linked from another outbreak elsewhere.

It would be impossible to prove that the child couldn't have caught it elsewhere.

I think the worry is less from a member of the public bringing action, rather a member of staff under hasawa

Kids have long caught infections in schools mine caught chicken pox there and I never thought to prosecute!

I do agree with face masks in school by the way but I find the suing because you caught an infectious disease odd given we have been catching infectious diseases in all sorts of places for a long time!

@Masquecharade

Posing a hypothetical (and to be frank, quite unpleasant) question here for the lawyers - if, in September, schools and businesses are back in fairly normal operation and cases increase, if a child was to become seriously unwell because of an outbreak at a school, would it be possible to sue the school itself? Would Governors/LEA’s be liable?

For the sake of expediency, assume the child has no other p2p contact apart from school (no shops/clubs and both parents work from home) and the track and trace system has identified school as the outbreak centre linked from another outbreak elsewhere.

Would it be more of a case against the state if schools follow their guidance properly? Schools seem to be between rock and a hard place?

How is it the schools fault there is a virus? Pretty sure they will be doing everything they can!

It would have to be demonstrated that the School had failed in their duty of care. If the school have followed government guidance then a successful action against the school would be unlikely.

Sunseekin, I agree that the guidance is unhelpful but I wonder if the Superior Orders defence wouldn’t wash (IANAL), now we know more about care homes.

I doubt it as long as the school followed the guidance set out.

It’s a virus. It’s still going to infect and kill some people no matter what we do. The only way to avoid it is us all locking down forever which is not feasible.

Superior orders is a criminal defence and not relevant here

I think schools and gov are behaving negligently towards families and teachers.
Some are going against the guidelines so you are exposed to the whole school. How is that to protect vulnerable/extremely vulnerable families?
The only thing our xchool is doing is not having assembly. Yeah that will stop it.
I think the gov unhelpful focus only on handwashing is to blame partly.
As obviously 60 kids who could be breathing aerosols is different to 30. The school seemto think it will all be ok with handwashing.

If this starts going down the claims culture route ( schools or elsewhere) and claims become successfull, just imagine where that will leave our lives in the future, no one will ever want to organise/ manage anything due to the risk involved.

And with diseases how could you ever prove anything for certain?

On the other hand if a school or firm blatantly ignored all guidence then they should get prosecuted in my opinion.
But if for example a child got ill through a minor lapse in control then as long as the school/ company is doing their best that is all we can expect, we shouldn't be considering suing people in a pandemic unless the issue is blatantly bad.

I think if you were going to prove your child (or anyone) had caught covid at school (or anywhere, like a holiday cottage) you'd have to take swabs all the time and have evidence.

It is near on impossible to prove that you have caught covid from a particular place.

It might be that the HSE would fine a business (or school) if it could be shown they didn't follow guidance/rules, but that's not the same as proving it led to illness.

I think if you are the sort who is going to sue a school for your child catching an infectious disease that can be caught from anywhere - even possibly just passing someone on the way to school and most people are now going to have to go to shops/work/doctors/dentist/paharmacy/walk around the block then you really should just do everyone a favour and withdraw your child from school home school them.
This disease is going to be around for a while yet: we have to learn to love with it and manage our risk exposure.
Unless a school is making pupils lick each other, and huddle in groups then I don’t think we can hold them culpable

Thanks Brie, could you clarify what you mean by “sort who is going to sue”?

Is that the same sort of person who might have long term financial issues because they have a child with a disability related to Covid exposure? That could have been avoided had the guidance been sufficiently strong to include adequate PPE for schools?

Also, I’m just checking as there is an vacancy for a Governor position at my school and I’d like to know what legal bods think about the risks of prosecution are 🤷🏻‍♀️

As I say all hypothetical 😉

The gov are responsible as
They know it is airborne
They know there is no SD
That 30+ per class is a lot
Schools are getting no money for extra cleaning/cleaners
They could have gone for 1 week on 1 off
Or online learning
Or no fines.
Found more building maybe.
Or masks.

@Masquecharade

Sunseekin, I agree that the guidance is unhelpful but I wonder if the Superior Orders defence wouldn’t wash (IANAL), now we know more about care homes.

@Masquecharade I’d need to do some research 😬🙄 I actually did a law degree but spent most of the time at the bar 🤭🤭 I remember a case about slugs and beer.

Would the unions be looking at it - ie they said they could bring cases against the schools re duty of care to students.

I certainly hope someone is accountable somewhere (but my knowledge is thin to say the least! I’ll be 👀 this thread!)

*i meant duty of care to teachers

The problem with the guidance is they tell you do do x/y/z ‘where possible’.

If it’s not possible, then who is liable?

schoolsweek.co.uk/unions-increase-reopening-opposition-by-warning-leaders-over-covid-19-legal-liability/

As with any legal case it would depend on the specifics of the school, what happened and all the rest. (I'm not a legal bod)

There have been times when a child has had an accident within school and this has had lifetime changes to the child, but even then I'm not sure if they have had a pay out.

School fire drills for example may have been a contributing factor, but might not have been the only cause for that lifetime change.

The care home situation is completely different to this. They were sent home from hospital by governments orders despite having the virus. THe government then failed again by forgetting about it and hoping the problem would go away.

The owners of these private homes are also accountable for doing fuck all to help. THese orders were made in preparation of the flood coming btw not when numbers started to rise, not that this makes a difference.
Yet some are still dealing with it from end of February beginning of March.

I hope every family sues the fuck out of government/homes on behalf of their loved ones.

You (general) have a choice to send your child to school for their education. If you don't think the risk is acceptable, you can deregister and homeschool. We have always been able to do this.

Oh and just because the government have said they don't need to wear masks doesn't mean they won't.

Schools will consider the specific needs of the students and staff. To get a clear answer, talk to that school.

Shielders will be back in school regardless of pupil/staff and so like before ppe will be used when essential.

I'd swear some people want to peoplen to die to be proved right be able to sue

Health and Safety at Work Act 1974

Funny how supermarket and more have been working without masks, as well as educators themselves despite the above.

Even though customers will have to wear them in shops, staff won't.

How is it the schools fault there is a virus? Pretty sure they will be doing everything they can!

Schools aren’t allowed to do everything they can. Heads have been specifically told that they are not allowed to take any preventative action that requires the use of extra space (no hiring village halls) and nothing that would prevent the full return of all pupils (so no rotas).

In secondary the guidance refers to year group ‘bubbles’ but it also says that teachers can teach multiple bubbles. Thus making them not bubbles, and rendering the whole idea pointless.

It raises an interesting thing through about schools internal policies when the child is ill and needs collecting.

Normally schools could be flexible about when someone collected. Wonder if they will be doing straight by the book from September?

I wonder this too. The government are forcing us to send our children in against our will (those of us who do not want to)
So surely they are liable if something happens?
Sounds dramatic and it’s not meant to but you know what I mean.
As an aside I also worry that say for example my ds teacher who has diabetes dies or is long term poorly that the kids will blame themselves. They are not stupid and mine know and have debated themselves about bubbles etc and only want to go back when it’s safe also...