239 scientists with 1 big claim: coronavirus is airborne

[Redolent]

From The New York Times today:

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The coronavirus is finding new victims worldwide, in bars and restaurants, offices, markets and casinos, giving rise to frightening clusters of infection that increasingly confirm what many scientists have been saying for months: The virus lingers in the air indoors, infecting those nearby.

If airborne transmission is a significant factor in the pandemic, especially in crowded spaces with poor ventilation, the consequences for containment will be significant. Masks may be needed indoors, even in socially distant settings. Health care workers may need N95 masks that filter out even the smallest respiratory droplets as they care for coronavirus patients.

Ventilation systems in schools, nursing homes, residences and businesses may need to minimize recirculating air and add powerful new filters. Ultraviolet lights may be needed to kill viral particles floating in tiny droplets indoors.

The World Health Organization has long held that the coronavirus is spread primarily by large respiratory droplets that, once expelled by infected people in coughs and sneezes, fall quickly to the floor.

But in an open letter to the W.H.O., 239 scientists in 32 countries have outlined the evidence showing that smaller particles can infect people, and are calling for the agency to revise its recommendations. The researchers plan to publish their letter in a scientific journal next week.

Even in its latest update on the coronavirus, released June 29, the W.H.O. said airborne transmission of the virus is possible only after medical procedures that produce aerosols, or droplets smaller than 5 microns. (A micron is equal to one millionth of a meter.)

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Proper ventilation and N95 masks are of concern only in those circumstances, according to the W.H.O. Instead, its infection control guidance, before and during this pandemic, has heavily promoted the importance of handwashing as a primary prevention strategy, even though there is limited evidence for transmission of the virus from surfaces. (The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention now says surfaces are likely to play only a minor role.)

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www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/239-experts-with-1-big-claim-the-coronavirus-is-airborne.html

So for those of us who work inside, all day, with no windows or doors to open, what do we do?
Is there a specific mask we should wear?

How is society ever going to be able to function again then unless a vaccine is found? Is it just going to be a case of survival of the fittest? Being indoors with other people will pose a huge risk, offices and other indoor workplaces, shops, restaurants, pubs, hairdressers etc.

What is the incidence of supermarket workers for example catching it though I wonder.

@FluffyKittensinabasket

If it was airborne, wouldn’t millions of people in the UK have it?

But they know it's spread via droplets and via contaminated surfaces yet not everyone living with an infected person catches it so there must also be other factors at play that determines whether you catch it or not.

ssd

You need a specific mask that filters -N95 - but they need to be properly fitted and are uncomfortable to wear.

Where is the open letter? I can find copies of the NYT article everywhere, but not the Open Letter to WHO.

might be rehash of claims
claims LM has been making since April.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras That is the thing I find most curious about this virus... Why others in households dont get it and it appears to happen often. Whether they do get it but asymptomatic? I read yesterday it was just assumed there was no natural immunity as its new but there was no evidence. Some scientists now suggest there is some level of innate immunity due to the virus having common properties with widely circulating coronavirusea. Whatevee the reason I would love to know the answer

Why is it all crossed out? Can't read it like that!

When the big cruise ships were quarantined and everyone was kept to their rooms and still got it (was that Feb?

Isn’t it far more likely they got infected before being confined to their rooms, but it took a week or so for symptoms to develop? If it could readily spread from one room to another by going down corridors and in between door cracks we may as well give up trying to stop it!
it’s spread!

[quote Jrobhatch29]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras That is the thing I find most curious about this virus... Why others in households dont get it and it appears to happen often. Whether they do get it but asymptomatic? I read yesterday it was just assumed there was no natural immunity as its new but there was no evidence. Some scientists now suggest there is some level of innate immunity due to the virus having common properties with widely circulating coronavirusea. Whatevee the reason I would love to know the answer[/quote]
Yes this seems plausible.

This is also interesting, from ex-WHO chief Costello:

“UCL professor called Karl Friston....thinks the herd immunity level to stop this epidemic is probably a lot lower than 60%. He thinks it’s around 25-30%. What he says is that around half your population is either sequestered or shielded, so are not exposed. Up to a half of the rest are not susceptible, like kids, because they’ve got good mucosal immunity. And others may get symptoms but not transmit it very easily. We’ve just sent a letter off to the Lancet about this. If our assumptions are right it may mean that this crisis ends earlier than we expect. But coronavirus won’t be eradicated without a vaccine.

I work in a fully air conditioned office, bugs whip round very quickly. So it wouldn't be any surprise if this could spread in the same way.

What he says is that around half your population is either sequestered or shielded, so are not exposed.

But shielding ends on 1st August so everyone will then be exposed and who is sequestered? How is that half the population? 2 million were shielded out of a population over 60 million. 2 million isn't half the population. Even adding in the vulnerable (who haven't been shielded and who are all still out there, potentially being exposed) it's still only about 20 million people, so still not half the population.

@Redolent interesting! I watched a video by an immunologist last night that made a point I have never considered before. I will try and dig it out. It said one of the biggest mistakes was use of the word novel, which has led to an assumption there is no immunity without any evidence. He said covid is part of a family so by definition it must share similar properties and therefore plausible there may be some innate immunity due to exposure to other coronaviruses. Much like flus of the past have been less lethal to the elderly as they had experienced flus from the same family when they were younger. He also said with antibody immunity, T cell immunity and natural immunity it may not take as long as we think to reach herd immunity and places like london with a rapid drop off of cases may not be far away. May be a load of rubbish but thought it was interesting and something to be considered.

Nyc was at least 25% months ago.
With uk it coukd be being helped by vitamin d as everyone rushed off to the beach.

i guess what you probably need is to measure that a % of men of x age have antibodies. Maybe the over 50s. And when that % have had it it is less concerning. (Less hospitalisation and more accurace measure of immunity.

Although if dc do prove not to keep immunity they will be the ones to be spreading it.

Apparently sequestered in this context means quarantined, not sure if it means semi-permanently though!

@StrawberryJam200

Apparently sequestered in this context means quarantined, not sure if it means semi-permanently though!

But we've not had 50% of the population quarantined. That's over 30 million people.

What is the incidence of supermarket workers for example catching it though I wonder

No higher than average.

My mum said she asked in her local branch of Iceland and they said they'd had nobody off with it (as far as they knew) during the entire period of lockdown.

I still think you get it from being breathed or sneezed/coughed on (or talked at and people spit, not intentionally), not because it's floating around in the atmosphere.

I think sometimes ignorance is bliss!

We have to carry on living our lives.

If it was that contagious and airborne everyone would have it.

Clean your hands, wear a mask when inside and can’t social distance and hope for the best.

If it was airborne, wouldn’t millions of people in the UK have it?

This is what I thought I had read - if it was airborne many more people would have had it and died

That is the thing I find most curious about this virus... Why others in households dont get it and it appears to happen often. Whether they do get it but asymptomatic? I read yesterday it was just assumed there was no natural immunity as its new but there was no evidence. Some scientists now suggest there is some level of innate immunity due to the virus having common properties with widely circulating coronavirusea. Whatevee the reason I would love to know the answer

My parents’ next door neighbour got it - confirmed case. The family is a couple with 5 kids, including ID twins, all at home due to the pandemic - teens and 20s. It’s a 3 bed semi, the 4 girls share a room. Only the dad and one child got it - at least that’s all who had symptoms. It would seem really odd that the others completely avoided infection, especially the sisters sharing a room.

[quote Jrobhatch29]@Redolent interesting! I watched a video by an immunologist last night that made a point I have never considered before. I will try and dig it out. It said one of the biggest mistakes was use of the word novel, which has led to an assumption there is no immunity without any evidence. He said covid is part of a family so by definition it must share similar properties and therefore plausible there may be some innate immunity due to exposure to other coronaviruses. Much like flus of the past have been less lethal to the elderly as they had experienced flus from the same family when they were younger. He also said with antibody immunity, T cell immunity and natural immunity it may not take as long as we think to reach herd immunity and places like london with a rapid drop off of cases may not be far away. May be a load of rubbish but thought it was interesting and something to be considered.[/quote]
That's interesting.

I've also read we still get H1N1 flu and that was the pandemic flu but some have immunity still and that's why it hasn't got as big in terms of epidemic as feared.

Genetics are odd.

Me, ds and a man in USA all have a genetic fault on a gene.
Man in USA has a type of neuromuscular disorder. It was discovered ds has the fault as he has another neuromuscular disorder (which actually is opposite in symptoms). I have no issues but was tested for fault after da was diagnosed with it. I'm female.
Ds currently in genetics study to find out why and they will look at other factors including male and female sex chromosomes.

@Jaxhog that’s lucky. Pretty tricky to do that we here we are as it’s so busy. Also made harder by living in a house of two flats.
The interesting thing is that my husband seems to have caught something, at least a cold if nothing else. We’ve been getting food delivered, wiping the food packaging and deliveries and quarantining the post, and went out for just one walk since lockdown, at an anti social hour 🤷‍♀️

Some really good articles here, thanks for posting.

Lots of viruses are airborne. I've had this out with family members so many times!! Some of them seem to think that 'airbourne' is like something out of a sci fi movie and I'm being dramatic. Airborne is common for viruses.

The theory that other antibodies to other, less dangerous, coronaviruses, could confer some protection. That is interesting too. I guess it couldn't happen due to procedure needing to be followed etc, but what about infecting everyone with the milder common cold causing coronavirus..

Probably a derail to the thread, but I really don't understand why so many people refuse to wear masks (medical issues aside), don't wash their hands, don't want to keep distance from people they are not in close relationships with. Every little helps. I can understand why they are opening things up because of the concern for the economy, but the above measures don't have any impact on the economy.

Both can be true.

We know it can become airborne through aerosol generating procedures and it's possible it can become airborne in other circumstances as well.

CIBSE produced guidance on air con systems in May:

www.cibse.org/news-and-policy/may-2020/making-workplaces-safe-it-s-a-whole-load-of-air

Nevertheless, it appears most transmission does happen through the spread of droplets. The success we have had so far - and some countries have had remarkable success - has been mostly through the prevention of droplet transmission.

The danger is that people think 'Oh no! It's airborne! Masks are useless! There's no point in physical distancing because it's everywhere!'

We need to keep focused on the main route of transmission (droplets) but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also be looking at other possible routes.

Not sure how this is news?

if airborne is possible but almost never happens -- then it doesn't really matter. We need to focus energies on the main ways covid spreads.

Unless you think zero-spread is the only acceptable target. That discussion what are we actually aiming to achieve still isn't being had.