Are the unions going to kick off about back to school in September?

[Flippetydip]

Is there going to be a big hoo ha from the unions about the "everyone back to school at full capacity" announcement from the PM today?

Any teachers on here care to give a view?

@cantkeepawayforever

It seems to me that all unions have done 'wrong' is to point out the blatant issues with the Government's guidance.

Like the fact that to teach all children in half class sized groups needs double the number of teachers and double the number of classrooms.

And that 2m distancing allows between 6-8 pupils per classroom, so the reduction to 1m means you can fit 12-15.

That's just basic measurement and common sense. Not some kind of bizarre intransigence....

Agreed

helloitsmemagaret
I’d rather take the actual figures as accurately summerised by FerventFox

If, according to you, it’s safe for teachers other then those shielding to be indoors in gatherings of 1000+ then why is it not safe for everyone else?

There is no sensible debate on this as any parent who dare express disappointment or a different view is shot down and called 'teacher bashing'. Parents have to have all the answers as every alternative suggestion is also shot down and it's unreasonable for us to expect the DofE (you know the govt and all their resources) could think outside the box.

There are lots of sectors who will have throughout of 150 different people per day, like airports, which apparently will be resuming as normal - but it's blasphemy to ask the same question of schools. Retails, restaurants all within 1m. I can see the issue for this in primary but am struggling to see why you need to be within 1m at secondary schools in 'most' cases.

I have seen genuine unreasonableness around this topic and stand by all my posts on previous threads where I've called it out. However I don't think anyone is actually listening to parents who are otherwise major teacher advocates. We are just being silenced.

Please read the actual union guidance, ( not what the daily mail says the unions are saying) And come back with something unreasonable that they have said.

Other sectors are not returning at normal, they are returning with appropriate protective measures in place. Which is all the unions are asking for schools. What is wrong with that?

Airports are not small contained spaces.

And restaurants will be managed to ensure some safe social distance l suspect. Probably the staff will be able to wear masks, and wash their hands frequently.

And a shop the size of my classroom could fit about 4 social distance customers.

So none of your examples have really any similarities.

None of this seems to apply to schools.

am struggling to see why you need to be within 1m at secondary schools in 'most' cases.

The issue with secondary schools is, as tbh it also is in primary, quite simply one of space.

A standard secondary school classroom, with 1m social distancing between the adults and near-adults it contains, will accommodate 12-15 people at maximum, compared with the 25-35 it accommodates normally.

A standard secondary school corridor, with pupils waiting to enter classrooms and those moving along it, has between 0 and 0.5 m between people at best.

A standard secondary school canteen, serving pupils and requiring them to be 1m apart and allow for cleaning of surfaces, would have to serve lunch all day.

I won't bother to go into toilets and handwashing. The issues are obvious.

1m might be possible, but it's not possible to combine 1m with normal numbers - and finding enough spaces to double the number of classrooms, and double the number of teachers to accommodate all pupils is not feasible.

Probably. They’ll pay for it in the end though when they are made even more toothless in the end. I think it’s ridiculous to put obstacles up when one in several thousand have the virus and falling. They were all in school in March without teachers and kids dropping dead all over the place but now the virus is a lot less going back is a problem. Makes no sense.

There are lots of sectors who will have throughout of 150 different people per day, like airports, which apparently will be resuming as normal - but it's blasphemy to ask the same question of schools. Retails, restaurants all within 1m

None of those employees are resuming as normal.

One of the reasons schools had to close was due to the amount of ill staff. Not enough staff to teach...

Kids will be back full time in September with no sd. Science bears it out. Govt said so today. If Scotland does it, so will England and Wales. Nowt to stress about op.

I’m not sure science does bear it out.

The governments scientific advisers don’t seem particularly comfortable about what had been unlocked today.,,

They were all in school in March without teachers and kids dropping dead all over the place

How many parents, grandparents and those who e.g. worked with parents, or were perhaps cared for by them in hospitals or care homes, were infected or passed infections on to those who subsequently died?

It is not infections IN school, but infections VIA schools that are the main concern.

@KeepWashingThoseHands

There is no sensible debate on this as any parent who dare express disappointment or a different view is shot down and called 'teacher bashing'. Parents have to have all the answers as every alternative suggestion is also shot down and it's unreasonable for us to expect the DofE (you know the govt and all their resources) could think outside the box.

There are lots of sectors who will have throughout of 150 different people per day, like airports, which apparently will be resuming as normal - but it's blasphemy to ask the same question of schools. Retails, restaurants all within 1m. I can see the issue for this in primary but am struggling to see why you need to be within 1m at secondary schools in 'most' cases.

I have seen genuine unreasonableness around this topic and stand by all my posts on previous threads where I've called it out. However I don't think anyone is actually listening to parents who are otherwise major teacher advocates. We are just being silenced.

I don't think this is a fair representation about sensible debate.

Parents do express regret and rightly so. Teachers express regret and rightly so.

I think where teachers are absolutely legitimate to complain is that the DfE have not engaged with the reality of teaching in England in the schools that we have in existence (plus have issued guidance late, and changed it over 40 times in the space of a week or so)

So I guess if I were a teacher I'd be pretty pissed to be constantly asked to be more innovative (make walls bendy), I'd be pretty pissed to be characterised as lazy, I'd be pretty pissed to accept that my working conditions ran the risk of being deemed of lesser importance than my fellow citizens.

As a parent I'm clear that my exasperation is with the DfE and the wider government, not with my DD's school which has been pretty brilliant.

However I don't think anyone is actually listening to parents who are otherwise major teacher advocates. We are just being silenced.

Did you read the hilarious suggestion a few weeks back by a parent who, in all seriousness, suggested that primary classrooms could have numerous buckets of water for children to wash their hands at regular intervals. And when teachers began to point out one or two hitches to that plan, we were accused of having a defeatest "can't do" attitude.

Teachers have to be encouraging their unions and I’m surprised

I’m a teacher tho not in school and our union is same union and acting in same way yet all of us are now starting to go in to work dispite it being against union advice

The union doesn’t control teachers they advise

Individual school staff can decide for themselves surely

The responses on here prove my point there is no sensible debate on this and that's where teachers lose the argument even if it's the govts fault. Everyone else is shot down.

I am not asking for everyone back FT as normal. 'Normal' no longer exists (for airport workers or otherwise).

Other sectors are returning with protective measures in place. What's the equivalent for schools? But yet again it's entirely unreasonable to ask for part-time etc. as someone is always quick to point out the edge case why that doesn't work. Might not - but it might in a lot of cases.

I don't read the daily mail so have no idea what you're referencing.

Think I'll bow out now as the far superior group think on this thread has all the answers and I thank my lucky stars I have other options a wonderful situation for our children.

Thank you, Myrtle.
A measured viewpoint.

Why do teachers keep doing this, where people who otherwise support their cause are shot down because they disagree with the union approach?

Disagreeing with you is not shooting you down. If only...

The unions are there to protect the conditions of service of their members. They cannot tell them not to work, nor where to work. They cannot close schools down. They did not close schools down.

Other sectors are returning with protective measures in place. What's the equivalent for schools?

Unfortunately, the equivalent for schools is reducing the numbers of children in the setting, or increasing the number of settings available. One isn't palatable to parents, and the other isn't palatable to the taxpayer.

Other sectors are returning with protective measures in place. What's the equivalent for schools?

The protective measures in place are dictated by Government guidance:

• 'Bubbles' of less than 15 in primary
• Socially distanced groups, no more than 1/4 of each of the 2 year groups allowed in in secondary
• PPE not seen as necessary
• No rotas, either daily or weekly
• Priority given to keyworkers
• Shielded staff to wfh
• Medically vulnerable workers to wfh or, if not possible, to be given safest jobs within schools, with 2m social distancing (ie not within a teaching bubble)

All schools that I know of are open. All are following this guidance (except where some have ignored the 'no rotas' advice). The vast majority of primaries are full [ie half full, with all classrooms and available staff utilised]

So this is our equivalent of 'opening with protective measures in place'.

It is just that parents want full time opening for every child as normal, and that isn't compatible with the protective measures UNLESS all schools double their staff and their number of classrooms.

If these threads are anything to go by, the great British public is self-opinionated, ignorant and scathing about any situation which doesn't suit them.
The farcical and vitriolic views about schools, unions and teachers which are being professed with so many misconceptions say more about the posters than they can possibly imagine. You are, quite frankly, making yourselves look ridiculous.
For future reference, a post containing the words kick-off, hoo-ha, care and view can't be anything but goady, condescending, disparaging and inflammatory.
Give it a rest and let us focus on settling back the limited number children we were told to admit by the government - not the unions.

And my gut feeling is that the virus will return, and the whole school thing will just explode in October or so.

Students and staff will become ill. The government will drag their heels on closing, more people will become ill, and the whole thing will just burst open.

The government will then be forced to act instead of ignoring it. But only after too many staff and children become ill. This whole thing is like a festering sore that needs lancing.

October will be interesting.

@myrtleWilson

For the record I have repeatedly said on this thread and every other (pls check) this is a govt issue not teachers. I'm not asking 'teachers' to be innovative but I don't expect to attacked by saying the DofE isn't and the current provision not good enough. Some teachers are unable to decouple critique of the unions and DofE with themselves. The CEO of my company is a nightmare - that's not a reflection of my work and beliefs.

I take exception to anyone suggesting I'm teacher bashing (which I'm not saying you were) and ask anyone to search my other posts on this topic. Whether we like it or not public 'sympathy' in this topic is wearing v thin.