Country walk, couldn't believe my eyes, this is how it spreads...

[RapidRainbow]

We've been, like everyone else, walking more than usual. Today we walked a new route. The path was really tricky to SD on having to stop and go up against barbed fences to let people pass. We were wedged between a group carrying a pushchair down to a beauty spot (we didn't realise until we got there the insistence to go down the very steep rocky stepped path was because they were clearly gathering for a day out with other families as we saw approx. 20 people in groups in a clearing!). At one point we stopped so we didn't get too close to people in front and a family group behind us went past and I felt their presence on my back, you know that little brush against you! Then there was a group of 3 in their early twenties ish with one man coughing and sensed them very close behind so moved over to let them past. On both occasions a polite 'excuse me' would have been better so we could suitable SD as best we could.

We sat on a hill near a gate, we could see everyone going through it opened it with their hands. My DH and son used their feet to knock the catches open so we didn't have to touch the gate. If we have to touch a stiff gate, we instantly use our hand spray gel, I'm so glad we didn't need to do that today!

I watched as kids climbed over the gate, people opened the gate then rubbed their face or opened a drinks bottle or ran their hands through their hair! I estimated that in the 10 minutes we sat there, approx 20 people touched that gate and not one used a handgel or wipe etc afterwards.

It's not exact, but that would be 120 people in an hour and over a 10 hour day of a busy area, approx 1200 touching that one gate. Statisticly, some of them would be carrying Covid!

These will be the people who get Covid and say 'well I've only been to the Supermarket and out walking'!

I don't think I'm being overly cautious? I feel safe outside if we SD but I try to imagine every person and every surface could be carrying Covid to keep risks to a minimum.

All I will say is "Germany"! Read the news!

I do read the news but must have missed the bit about thousands of Germans coming down with Covid from touching gates.

We opened our “non essential” shop this weekend and I must admit I was a little anxious but we only allowed two customers in at a time, provided hand sanitiser, disposable face masks and gloves to give people choice and we were behind a Perspex screen. We asked people not to touch stock unless buying. Everyone cooperated and I now feel more confident about continuing to trade. However I will let you know if me or OH get struck down with COVID 19 then some of you can say “I told you so”.
If you want to know how worried some people continue to be (perhaps rightly so considering age) you should read what is being posted on Gransnet.

You do you. Let them do them.

I think outdoor transmission is pretty low if people aren't in close proximity to each other for 15 mins or more...I do my best to SD where I can but agree not everyone does but if there's the possibility of a second spike and a long winter indoors then I am going to enjoy every outdoor activity without worrying how close people are too me. Hope you can try to do the same :)

@Alex50

How many people on here are washing their shopping?

You're asking on the wrong thread,you need the are you washing your shopping thread that has been in the active list for the last few days

I have to admit this thread has amazed me.

I don't know what has happened to this country or if we have always been like this but it seems absolutely insane that people think you can catch Covid from an outdoor gate and that we have people washing their shopping and post down.

I can only think that it due to our media that we behave this way and think it can be traced back to Princess Diana's funeral in all honesty, something changed in our psyche that day as a country. I speak to friends in Germany, Italy, Australia & New Zealand and they don't behave in the way we do, they are aware of the risk vs reality. The tabloid and hysterical social media (mumsnet too?) culture here seems to have created a nation of people unable to think for themselves. In this case thinking there are clouds of Covid everywhere and every surface must be decontaminated.

At the moment with the rate of infections in this country you have around a 1 in 1000 chance of catching Covid (this includes care home and hospital settings so the real figure is probably 1 in 10,000+ for community transmission). As a comparison, you have a 1 in 1,134 of drowning and I'm sure the majority of people don't leave their house panicking that they might drown today. This is not even taking into consideration the vast majority of people won't get seriously ill from Covid.

When did we become so hysterical and loose the ability to be rational?

@TerrapinStation I will have a look. I come on mumsnet to think do people really exist like this in the real world 😂

@alex50

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3942168-Are-you-still-wiping-groceries

It’s almost impossible to catch outside.

BTW scientists believe that people with high degrees of anxiety about being infected are more likely to fall ill.

@Sonineties totally agree, you will make yourself ill with worry and anxiety, than actually living your life and enjoying it. I have gone shopping every day in lockdown, walked my dogs twice a day, met people where I keep my horse every day, with social distancing, these people are nurses, teacher assistants, looking after key worker children, my husband goes into work meeting strangers every day. We have not caught anything or met anyone who has been ill. The people who are scared to go out and scrubbing their shopping, I bet are more likely to get sick from anxiety than I am with carrying on as normal.

BTW scientists believe that people with high degrees of anxiety about being infected are more likely to fall ill

It's well-known that stress lowers the immune system so that makes sense.

@TerrapinStation interesting read 😂

The evidence of surface transmission for COVID has always been weak. The advice to constantly sanitise hands is based on what we know about flu but the two viruses have very notable differences.

All that focus on washing hands very thoroughly yet not worrying sharing a crowded tube carriage with no mask back in March seems to have been completely wrong in hindsight!

Funnily enough @joan04 DH was saying just that about the Diana effect. It's been downhill since then, probably coinciding with the rise of social media.

If it's so easy to catch it from any and every surface most of us would have got it by now.
The lack of risk assessment skills and the collective group think is just as worrying.

At this point, on the longest day of the year with maximum UV potential, with the presence of the virus in the community diminishing, the chances of picking up sufficient traces of the virus to overwhelm a healthy immune system through contact with the gate are minimal.

If you are determined to uphold rigorous 2m social distancing and expect others to do so too, don't go to busy beauty spots on a pleasant weekend, and don't go exploring off if it's unlikely that the path will be wide enough to keep 2m apart.

There are never zero risks. To anything.
Twice, I've finished a country walk and found a tick on my leg, a potential for Lyme Disease, easily comparable to Covid 19 for long term unpleasantness.

People are more relaxed now because it is not healthy to live in a state of heightened stress long term. If you go with a 1:1000 chance of someone having the virus, bare in mind that a significant proportion of positive tests originate from an institution such as a hospital or carehome where there is a prolonged closed environment and little community mixing. Most others tend to be clusters such as workplaces. Also few symptomatic people will be out doing country walks, and evidence points towards assymptomatic people shedding much less virus than the symptomatic.

The risk of someone actually having enough virus left on a gate in that situation is miniscule and really not worth stressing over.

All those people that think the know numbers and statistics, are absolutely missing the point that you can not run even a reasonable guesstimate as they have no figures to go by as less then 50% of population have been tested. And do you really trust someone who couldn’t pass a basic gcse unless daddy paid for it?!

Haven't the sense they were born with.

@midgebabe

That is can be caught from surfaces seems evident from one study of a series of infections which were traced to a church. Most of the infected were at the same service. One person however seems to have picked it up from sitting at the same seat several hours later

It's also why the hand wash advice is still heavily promoted worldwide

So even if not the primary route, it is possible. Your reaction to this possibility probably depends on how risk adverse you are and what you perceive the risk is for you or your family

Actual risk to individuals of being seriously ill if they catch the virus varies by an incredible amount from around 1 in 10 for oldest people, through 1 in a Few hundred for normal aged people with various not life limiting health conditions , to something like 1 in a 100,000 or less for the young and healthy

So it's hardly surprising that the actions people might want to take vary tremendously as well

Hasn't it since been shown that transmission in churches has been due to droplets from singing indoors, a bit like shouting at a football match or singing along at a gig? Surely that's more likely in this case (as it has been in others) than someone touching the same bench or bible as someone who had it?

No I don’t trust Boris. I do trust the numbers from the NHS website, I do trust my numbers for my local area, we haven’t had any new infections for over 2 weeks and nobody has died in our hospital for over 10 days. I can also see local people in supermarkets, family, friends nobody I know is ill and nobody is washing their shopping or worried about touching gates. Everyone is getting on with their lives accept on mumsnet.

www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/06/COVID-19-total-announced-deaths-21-June-2020.xlsx

You should see London parks if this worried you. For weeks they have been a sea of people sitting in groups across parks and commons. Jumping up to go to bars doing takeaways to buy drinks on busy pavements etc. Mainly obeying rules of max 6 people but a few larger groups. A lot of groups in their 20s and then lots of families meeting up with other families.

Really doesn't bother me. People are looking at the data and using common sense to get on with life. I am genuinely more worried about things like cancer going undiagnosed because of the lull in the NHS, traffic accidents and mental health at this point which all feel like bigger risks to me IMO.

What does worry me is 10 million back log of the NHS appointments, if there is another peak it will hit in autumn just when NHS are trying to cope with the back log.

@Alex50

What does worry me is 10 million back log of the NHS appointments, if there is another peak it will hit in autumn just when NHS are trying to cope with the back log.

What are you basing an autumn second peak on? There was the VE Day prediction, didn’t happen. The BLM march prediction, hasn’t happened. Why would there be an autumn peak?

I don't think just "passing people" is a major factor in transmission. The gate might be as it survives on wood. So the 1st person to use the gate by hand would be fine but eventually someone could transmit that way. Personally I try to use my elbow or my foot to open doors now. That said, if this is such a worry for you, stay home.

@joan04 I like "the Diana effect". I remember thinking so at the time: all that mass hysteria over somebody most people had never met.

Another effect I think has applied with some people here (including me) is what I call "the Bliar effect" (no shame there, other posters have told me off for that before), in that governments and the media frequently lie and exaggerate things out of all proportion, so that some of us just think "yeah, whatever" when the next piece of hysteria comes along. Examples have been the Millennium Bug, your mobile phone is killing you, weapons of mass destruction. It took me a while to take Covid seriously at all, because as soon as all the panic started, I was thinking "more lies, more hysteria, more panic". If governments and the media keep exaggerating things and crying wolf, they'll have no credibility left for things that really matter (and I do think Covid matters, but sometimes it's hard to believe it's a threat amidst all the induced panic).

OP, I totally get you

We have left places we went to walk when we saw how many people there were, not social distancing, touching gates and their faces etc. Turned and left to find some place else with less people.

I can understand people dying it’s not USUALLY spread this way BUT IT CAN because the virus does live on metal and wood surfaces did a while. So if someone has it, it’s in their hands, they touch the gate, then you and you touch your face etc, there you go

Same if someone has it and coughing and then you walk through their droplets.

Yes, chances are slim but it’s still a chance. If it weren’t they’d still be having outdoor sports matches with spectators, kids football practice and matches etc. Just best to avoid if you see that and find someplace else less crowded.