Every child in every year group will return to school in September, Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has said.

[itswhereitsat]

I didn't catch the briefing but read the above comment in the news. The big question is, did he say whether children returning would be part-time or full time? Or did he just gloss over that bit?

Good virologist on LBC - around 97% won’t catch it at 1m apart v 98.5% at 2m

It really jumps less than that, especially with contact (hugging etc)

In the school context, we have to remember that risk of infection is a function of probability that someone is infected, and then the distance, place and length of time you are in contact with that person, as well as protective measures such as PPE.

So a short encounter at a till might involve being in contact with lots of people (so a higher probability that one of those people is infected) but the short duration of the encounter lowers the risk of the infection being passed on.

A secondary teacher may come into contact with a very large number of people at a short distance for a short period of time (while passing along corridors etc) but will also spend, over a typical 5 lesson day, 1 hour with 150 different pupils, sharing the same air. So a smaller number of people that the till operator, but a much longer duration for possible infection.

A primary teacher will come into contact with a much smaller number of children, but that exposure is likely to involve closer contact and be for 6 hours each day.

A doctor has a higher probability of coming into contact with an infected person, even though the number of people they come into contact with is smaller than a teacher, and is likely to come closer to them, but has PPE.

If full classes of 30 return, still with no PPE and obviously with no social distancing in class, then it is this combination of risks that needs to be thought of, not just 'oh, teenagers have been meeting in big groups in parks' [open air].

Just trying to find out who here telling schools to go back and get on with it is also working somewhere, inside, in a room, with 30 others, in fairly close proximity to other, for an hour. Repeat x 5 or six.

Like I already said, my friend's restaurant will be opeing in 2 weeks (that's July, not September) so, er...the waitresses! And all waitstaff in every independent restaurant from July/August I would think?
Also, my supermarket, as I have said, packed, no PPE, probably one member of staff would be less than a metre from hundreds of customers a day.
How close do teachers really need to get to secondary age children actually? Probably no closer than a member of retail staff helping a customer with a self checkout?
Its doesn't matter, anyway. Schools are going to have to open, so all this "who is as much in danger as teachers" bickering is moot.
It's happening, it can't not. You can't shut a country down for more than 6 months.

The government will probably say that risk of covid is low in kids so that social distancing and bubbles are not needed in schools.
Even if there is a second wave, they will say schools need to remain open.

The men at the tolls were touching around 1,000 hands a day, so I would have thought that's far higher risk, saame as takeway worker, touching lots of hands each day. Anyone in private sector who refuses to work would lose their job as loads are doing. It's the biggest economic crisis since 1709 and kids education is going down the pan - if we were being offered a full-time from home solution by schools I wouldn't mind but we aren't is 3 lessons a day with almost no feedback so every day each child gets 2 hours behind. And that's if they have support at home to help them do the 3 hours. It's not sustainable.

They wont though. If there is a significant national second wave (a big if), then schools will be closing all over the place due to staff absence. Kids will be kept off too. We saw that in March. We also know from information about how many children are in school now, that mumsnet is not representative of parent feeling towards school safety.

Its doesn't matter, anyway. Schools are going to have to open, so all this "who is as much in danger as teachers" bickering is moot. It's happening, it can't not.

It's not moot to me, or to 500,000 other people in the country. You need us, and giving the impression that not even our lives are as important as your child's education, or you being able to do your job, surprisingly makes us want to comment back. Sorry, I mean 'bicker' for our own workplace safety. Crowing things like 'it's happening, live with it'.. you may as well just shout DIE FOR MY CHILDREN. I'm hoping the unions will actually grow teeth over this one to be honest.

Like I already said, my friend's restaurant will be opeing in 2 weeks (that's July, not September) so, er...the waitresses! And all waitstaff in every independent restaurant from July/August I would think?

I would imagine there will be clear measures in place there to protect staff-I would hazard a guess at 1/2m distancing, one way system, heavily reduced customer numbers, bringing drinks on trays to avoid contact, ordering by apps and paying by card, possibly through a plastic screen, visors/gloves.

kids education is going down the pan

It's really not. They've missed 10 weeks of school.

so every day each child gets 2 hours behind

No, they dont.

Stop reading the Daily Mail.

@ohthegoats exactly what it is it you want to happen with schools?

Koala

What I was trying to explain is that risk is not just a function of number and distance. It is also a function of time - there is a reason that contact tracing is about finding people you were less than 2m for for 15 minutes or more.

All teachers want to be in front of their classes, teaching. All teachers are worried about their pupils. However the general public simply stating that we must work or we will be sacked, and that our safety doesn't matter at all (not to mention the community transmission VIA schools - from child A's dad to child Z's vulnerable mum, or into the care home where child Q's mother works) does not make us feel confident.

@ohthegoats
Its really not. They have missed 10 weeks of school

10 weeks so far....... and many more to come if you are anything to go by

MH - when reducing 2m distance can mitigate in other ways. Mitigate in schools too

I can see how staggered starts and buses with nothing better to do shuttling everyone around may work for those schools with the money to fund it, but it absolutely will not work in many areas. My child's school has a huge catchment area. Her friend lives in a town almost 40 miles away from ours. School is in the middle. My child gets two public buses to school, and the same back, from the bus station by the school. She shares the bus with children from 3 other schools, plus young adults from a FE college,as well as members of the public who live in the scattered villages. I am a key worker and I work in the opposite direction from all of this, absolutely no way could I drive her to school. A private school coach running all day would possibly work, but it really would be all day, and I'm not sure where the money is to come from given many of the schools around here struggle to afford soap and textbooks

My DC’s are older but when they were at school, they went by Tube as did the majority of the school. Little or no opportunity for social distancing. Not much point in a bubble at school after they’ve been on the Tube for up to an hour.

@MarshaBradyo

MH - when reducing 2m distance can mitigate in other ways. Mitigate in schools too

That's what many teachers were asking for though. But it was met with a chorus of " no, you can't have ppe in schools,my child would be scared, won't be able to communicate with the teacher" etc.

The point is, parents can't have it all ways - schools fully open, no SD, no PPE.

If secondary schools don't have bubbles then how many whole school closures do you think will happen, every time someone develops symptoms? We'll be heading into cold and flu season so every time a student or staff member gets a cough or temperature they'll have to shut the school until it's proved not Covid, because there'll be no way of isolating contacts if everyone has come into contact with everyone else. Then parents will be on here complaining about the never ending shutdowns of schools.

Hear I’m with you. It’s a simple solution mitigate with PPE. Children will be fine.

Visors are better all round, masks are harder on teachers and not as effective for them.

giving the impression that not even our lives are as important as your child's education, or you being able to do your job, surprisingly makes us want to comment back. Sorry, I mean 'bicker' for our own workplace safety. Crowing things like 'it's happening, live with it'.. you may as well just shout DIE FOR MY CHILDREN.

Calm down. I'm not crowing anything. That's a bit paranoid isn't it? I'm just stating a fact. The country cannot afford to remain half shut for more than half a year. Again though, how close do secondary teachers get to children? They do not ever have to touch them do they? I would have thought that's frowned upon. Also, I very much doubt that in reality waiters will be behind plastic visors, but ok. Besides, hospitality is opening again in July. That's July NOT September, which is that we are talking about. By September, even the most safety conscious pubs and restaurants will be pretty relaxed, (having worked in the restaurant biz for years). I'm sorry if it upsets some people but a way to get kids back to schools has to be found.

I just don't know how they're going to work this, or what the point of bubbles will be

I think bubbles seem to work better in primary, and primary kids often don't have the same travel issues as secondary as parents take them in

Couldn't they use the bubble model in primary, then open secondaries as normal, but use PPE? The vast majority of secondary pupils shouldn't be afraid of teachers wearing PPE.

I’m with you. It’s a simple solution mitigate with PPE. Children will be fine

Isn’t it the case that masks protect the wearer, so to protect staff, children should be wearing masks, like in many other countries?

Again, the government have NOT said that teachers cannot wear visors? Not in any of the govmt pages I have read since May anyway. They have said ",shouldn't be nessecary" so isn't it up to the individual schools to decide?
I don't think an 11 year old would be scared of a visor. Our butcher wears one and he also has a big knife and I don't think people are running screaming from him.

Teachers do get fairly close to children, there's TAs too. I used to work in a primary school and then in a secondary school, I actually caught more bugs in secondary because it was bigger and the primary children had handwashing drilled into them whereas the teens were at the too cool stage. Also we were outside more in primary

Isn’t it the case that masks protect the wearer, so to protect staff, children should be wearing masks, like in many other countries?

Masks aren’t a particularly good solution for that reason unless children wear them, yep. Visors are better.

I teach a practical subject. I have to get up really really close to my students to help them with machinery.

The scared children thing is a bit off. By now they must be used to seeing masks around. Visors aren’t that big a deal either, although yet to see one.