Every child in every year group will return to school in September, Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has said.

[itswhereitsat]

I didn't catch the briefing but read the above comment in the news. The big question is, did he say whether children returning would be part-time or full time? Or did he just gloss over that bit?

[quote DomDoesWotHeWants]@geniie

I'm being fed the science by a micro biologist researching Covid at their place of work. [/quote]
Of course you. And of course, the government dont have anyone half as good advising them. And remember, it's advice. They'll also be getting advice on the economy too, and education, welfare of children. Then someone has to find the balance.

Please remember that they are not only considering "the science" just directly in relation to covid but lots of other things.

At some point they will deem ft education and child welfare and the economy more important. Will that be September? Who knows but it will have to happen eventually.

@Uhoh2020

Are you assuming that all vulnerable/shielding staff will be back full time september the 1st?

Surely anyone who is shielding/vulnerable regardless of their job will have to make some decisions at some point with their employers. If people are unable to do their jobs because it will have a detrimental effect on their health they need to step aside for others to step in. And I dont just mean teachers I mean any profession. When children return to school it's no longer feasible to work from home, just the same for carers or front line workers who cant work from home. Are employers meant to leave vacancies open indefinitely for those who aren't able to actually do the jobs that they are employed to do?
It's sad and the government need to financially support the long term shielding/extremely vulnerable but we cant stop the rest of society getting back to some sort of normal because of people needing to shield for goodness knows how long.

Bloody hell the cup of human kindness overflows here.

Yep, just sack us all right, because the government's incompetence at handling this has now meant that some of us are so vulnerable we can't leave our homes. So sure, lock us away, deny us everything - relationships, social lives, exercise, education, medical care and now sack us as well. I really hope that a legal challenge is launched if this happens.

@hear so it's ok for schools not to open fully because some of the paid staff cant come in? It's ok for care homes not to be able to open to full capacity because some of the paid staff cant come in? It's ok for nurserys not to take in as many children because theres lesspeople to take care of them? It's ok for hospital/doctor appointments to be restricted because theres no one to see them? Thats ok long term is it? I never said it was a ideal or nice but realistically how long can that go on for

[quote Uhoh2020]@hear so it's ok for schools not to open fully because some of the paid staff cant come in? It's ok for care homes not to be able to open to full capacity because some of the paid staff cant come in? It's ok for nurserys not to take in as many children because theres lesspeople to take care of them? It's ok for hospital/doctor appointments to be restricted because theres no one to see them? Thats ok long term is it? I never said it was a ideal or nice but realistically how long can that go on for[/quote]
So you think by getting rid of all the shielded people you're going to fix that? Do you think that there are replacement teachers, doctors, nurses and so on just waiting on the wings?

There's also a little thing called the Equality Act which might well come into play here. This is not the fault of the vulnerable and the shielded. We aren't expendable, we are as much a part of society as you are and we shouldn't be just pushed aside so that you can all get back to living your lives. It's not our fault that government mismanaged this at the start and failed to track and isolate suspected cases so that this wasn't allowed to rampage through the country.

You're so.keen to shut us away and get back to.normal what about children who are shielded? Do they just not get an education now? What about shielded people who need medical treatment? They just can't have it because you want everything back to normal?

I can see the plan will work for primaries in places well below the peak, where community infections are low.

We are already teaching returned year groups in bubbles of 15 with 2 adults, and have keyworker bubbles of the same size, and can see that (with some use of HLTAs to cover absent teachers) this could expand to bubbles of 30.

However, if we are capped at 30, then what will we do with the 2 extra children per class - we always run KS2 at 32, occasionally 33?

What will happen for PPA (currently, returned year group bubbles are closed 1 day per week - including both 'normal' half day PPA, plus half a day [far toolittle, but at least something] to set up all the online learning for the non-returned year groups)? Does the school close for half a day each week?

However, the really big question is what will happen for secondaries? The bubble concept doesn't work AND the pupils are far more 'adults' than 'children' in terms of infection? And what will happen in areas where community infections are still high?

I am sick to the back teeth of the cycle of:

• Announce
• Produce unworkable guidelines
• Consult those who actually work in schools
• Scramble to adjust the guidelines
• Fail to deliver, and blame schools / unions / teachers

You're so.keen to shut us away and get back to.normal what about children who are shielded? Do they just not get an education now? What about shielded people who need medical treatment? They just can't have it because you want everything back to normal?

Why can't shielded people have medical treatment?

And I'd very much hope that shielded children get the same work sent home to them and some one on one support via video chat or whatever. They still need an education, of course they do.

What's the alternative?

What schools need is full funding to pay the salary of everyone shielding (as the Government has told them they CAN'T work), so that they can employ temporary cover.

That funding must be promised NOW, as schools have 4 weeks to advertise for and employ this cover.

The real question is what happens to the medically vulnerable - current Government guidelines state that they should be given the safest jobs in school, which must allow them to keep 2m distance, if they cannot work at home. That means that they cannot work with children in a classroom, and schools are rather short of roles that don't require that!

@TrustTheGeneGenie

You're so.keen to shut us away and get back to.normal what about children who are shielded? Do they just not get an education now? What about shielded people who need medical treatment? They just can't have it because you want everything back to normal?

Why can't shielded people have medical treatment?

And I'd very much hope that shielded children get the same work sent home to them and some one on one support via video chat or whatever. They still need an education, of course they do.

What's the alternative?

Because all medical treatment (certainly for me) is being assessed on the basis of "is this really, absolutely, vital?" If the answer is no, then it's being delayed until a time when I'm no longer shielding. That's having s huge impact on my health - my quality of life and my medical condition is deteriorating because I'm not able to have the treatment that I need.

And I'd very much hope that shielded children get the same work sent home to them and some one on one support via video chat or whatever. They still need an education, of course they do.

Judging by the outcry from parents on here, that is not a substitute for being in school is it? So children who are shielded will be left behind as their peers progress. How is that not discrimination?

What schools need is full funding to pay the salary of everyone shielding (as the Government has told them they CAN'T work), so that they can employ temporary cover.

This.

I suspect this won’t happen though, so there will have to be an alternative.

Will schools opening part time on a rota be acceptable? I suspect people might be sympathetic if they W themselves are shielding or know someone who is, but would everyone? Long term?

We’ve been working from home and our return to office based working has been deferred to the start of September on the assumption that schools will be open as normal by then. Lots of employers need employees back in order to survive particularly as the furlough scheme is being phased out. The government needs to get its act together and let everyone know what is happening.

Because all medical treatment (certainly for me) is being assessed on the basis of "is this really, absolutely, vital?" If the answer is no, then it's being delayed until a time when I'm no longer shielding. That's having s huge impact on my health - my quality of life and my medical condition is deteriorating because I'm not able to have the treatment that I need

I see although I believe everyone is being refused everything non vital right now. Including me. However I never agreed with the complete shut down of the NHS and your absolutely should be able to access medical care. It should be as safe as possible but at the end of the day it would be your decision whether to take that risk iyswim.

Judging by the outcry from parents on here, that is not a substitute for being in school is it? So children who are shielded will be left behind as their peers progress. How is that not discrimination?

What they are getting now In most cases is not a substitute. What I suggested I think would be, however the thing is being at home is not beneficial to your average child. A shielded child would be staying at home for their own benefit so it's slightly different. Again it's a choice for parents to make isn't it?

You're basically saying well if I can't do everything nobody else should be allowed to but realistically that can't happen can it? It wouldn't benefit anyone?

@hear blame the government blame me blame who you want but for every front line shielding person the impact of that spreads further than just yourselves having to stay home long term, it impacts your fellow colleagues and the people that profession serves. I know that given the opportunity no one in the world would choose to be vulnerable or have to shield.

Secondary bubbles don't work because of options
I'm laughing. Yeah, it's not just because if options though!
So....I'm back in the office in September, along with thousands of others, getting on a packed train, then coming home to kids..all the high school kids here are hanging out now, and they are not social distancing anymore amongst themselves.
They ARE social distancing from vulnerable people in their own families though.
After work I might go to the supermarket, where they have abandoned queues now, everybody in, and it's always crowded when I go. Half the people in the supermarket will have also been in b&q,IKEA, Primark..
When they finally let secondary children back in school loads of them will be travelling on buses, tubes, trains.
They will have been able to go to the pub for Sunday dinner.
The world around them will be back to normal, but people are suggesting they sit in spaced out bubbles wearing masks?
Sorry, thats bonkrers. Yes,visors for teachers, yes, vulnerable teachers should stay home,but you can't really justify yet more weirdness and obstacles to learning and socialising on these kids. Mentally, they are done, let them go back to school normally.

visors for teachers, yes

You do know we're not allowed PPE at the moment, don't you?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras, it's rubbish but do you really think people in other jobs aren't already facing it?

No one who works in a supermarket or care home has been staying at home on full pay. My asthmatic friend who works in a care home worked all the way through because she'd have been on unpaid leave otherwise. All the way that is, except the 3 weeks she was ill with the Covid she caught at work, when she was on SSP

WowLucky,

Was your friend medically vulnerable, or actually shielding?

I see although I believe everyone is being refused everything non vital right now. Including me. However I never agreed with the complete shut down of the NHS and your absolutely should be able to access medical care. It should be as safe as possible but at the end of the day it would be your decision whether to take that risk iyswim.

Does the fact that the NHS is still operating on such a restricted basis not give you a clue as to the reality of the situation though?

Secondly, while people have your attitude "sack shielded people, we all want to get back to normal" you are promoting a two tier society where shielded people are now excluded, our lives aren't as important as yours, we have no part in society.

What they are getting now In most cases is not a substitute. What I suggested I think would be

Really? How is what you are suggesting for shielded children, any better than what all children are getting now? It's essentially being home schooled by parents, rather than being taught by a teacher. Why is that ok for shielded students but classed as having no education for non shielded students?

, however the thing is being at home is not beneficial to your average child. A shielded child would be staying at home for their own benefit so it's slightly different

Staying in isolation is beneficial to a shielded child is it? In what way? It's detrimental in every way other than not exposing them to a virus, that wouldn't be so much of an issue had it been better managed.

. Again it's a choice for parents to make isn't it?

Really?

You're basically saying well if I can't do everything nobody else should be allowed to but realistically that can't happen can it? It wouldn't benefit anyone?

What I'm saying is that plans to manage this should include everyone. It shouldn't be a case of let's just lock those that are inconvenient to us away so that we can do everything that we want to.

You do know we're not allowed PPE at the moment, don't you?
Ok..Who has said visors are not allowed and why?

With respect to children shielding, there is a system in place already that can be expanded. Children who are long term ill, excluded or with SEN that a school cant support; are supposed to get LA tutors and access to online education for about 5 hours a week. Its like getting blood out of a stone to access this so you get children recieving nothing for years. But mechanism is there. This has been deemed adequete education for literally thousands and thousands of children for years.

Does the fact that the NHS is still operating on such a restricted basis not give you a clue as to the reality of the situation though?

Yes. They were expecting it to be bad. It was bad, arguably not quite as bad as anticipated, now it's much less bad. Things need to and are starting up again. You should be able to access that if you want to.

Really? How is what you are suggesting for shielded children, any better than what all children are getting now? It's essentially being home schooled by parents, rather than being taught by a teacher. Why is that ok for shielded students but classed as having no education for non shielded students?

Well that isn't what I suggested at all is it?

Staying in isolation is beneficial to a shielded child is it? In what way? It's detrimental in every way other than not exposing them to a virus, that wouldn't be so much of an issue had it been better managed

Isolation isn't beneficial for any child, but if covid is a huge risk to a child then what do you do? What's your alternative?

It should have been better managed but what can we do about that now?

Really

Yes.

What I'm saying is that plans to manage this should include everyone. It shouldn't be a case of let's just lock those that are inconvenient to us away so that we can do everything that we want to

Go on then tell us how to do that because I am stumped? You want to be safe but you also want to live a completely normal life with no additional risk? That can't happen can it?

No one who works in a supermarket or care home has been staying at home on full pay.

Really? Really? Maybe you'd like to re consider that - bearing in mind that I work in a supermarket. Bearing in mind that anyone who was classed as vulnerable (not shielding, just vulnerable) was offered, on the first day of lockdown, the option of twelve weeks off, on full pay. No proof needed of vulnerability. Self selection entirely.

I'm shielding and my twelve weeks was up mid June. They've now extended that until.end of July, on full pay and it will be reviewed every four weeks, so, I'm going to say you aren't correct.

@hear you are lucky then I have a family member in the care sector shielding only on ssp

Yes. They were expecting it to be bad. It was bad, arguably not quite as bad as anticipated, now it's much less bad. Things need to and are starting up again. You should be able to access that if you want to.

Except it isn't getting back to normal. All of my outpatients appointments are via telephone. My husband's go surgery isn't even open. I'm receiving appointments now for July and August that will still be telephone appointments. I need an urgent respiratory consultation, referral made beginning of February. Spoke to someone on Thursday who said they are very concerned about me but system is still not running so they have no idea when I will be seen. Physiotherapy will be back from 4th July but won't see me because I'm shielding - that's not my choice, that's them taking the decision on my behalf.

Well that isn't what I suggested at all is it?

You suggested work being sent home with some one on one support via video chat. That's not much different than what a lot of students are getting now. That's not a substitute for being in school, having lessons taught by a teacher.

Isolation isn't beneficial for any child, but if covid is a huge risk to a child then what do you do? What's your alternative?

Managing this in such a way that infection is supressed, outbreaks minimised and contained and keeping risk as low as possible throughout society so that no one needs to be excluded because it is too dangerous for them.

Go on then tell us how to do that because I am stumped? You want to be safe but you also want to live a completely normal life with no additional risk? That can't happen can it?

The way to do this is to suppress transmission as much as possible - lockdown should have been stricter (infection would have been controlled much more quickly), it should have been extended by two weeks to get much more control and eased more slowly. Proper measures like track and trace, compulsory wearing of masks, and adhering to social distancing would make society much safer for everyone. Other countries have done this, very successfully. It isn't impossible. Instead, many of you just want to throw all measures away in order to have complete normality in your life even if others have to be shut away entirely in order to facilitate you.

[quote Uhoh2020]@hear you are lucky then I have a family member in the care sector shielding only on ssp[/quote]
That might well be but it's erroneous to state that no one working in a supermarket has been at home on full pay in an effort to ramp up criticism of teachers.

Except it isn't getting back to normal. All of my outpatients appointments are via telephone. My husband's go surgery isn't even open. I'm receiving appointments now for July and August that will still be telephone appointments. I need an urgent respiratory consultation, referral made beginning of February. Spoke to someone on Thursday who said they are very concerned about me but system is still not running so they have no idea when I will be seen. Physiotherapy will be back from 4th July but won't see me because I'm shielding - that's not my choice, that's them taking the decision on my behalf

I've agreed you should be able to access it and it should be your choice. Are you under a consultant? Can you speak to them?

You suggested work being sent home with some one on one support via video chat. That's not much different than what a lot of students are getting now. That's not a substitute for being in school, having lessons taught by a teacher

Exactly the same work. The actual curriculum not twinkl worksheets.

What would you suggest then?

Managing this in such a way that infection is supressed, outbreaks minimised and contained and keeping risk as low as possible throughout society so that no one needs to be excluded because it is too dangerous for them

Is that not what's happening? Nobody is forcing you to shield are they?

The way to do this is to suppress transmission as much as possible - lockdown should have been stricter (infection would have been controlled much more quickly), it should have been extended by two weeks to get much more control and eased more slowly. Proper measures like track and trace, compulsory wearing of masks, and adhering to social distancing would make society much safer for everyone. Other countries have done this, very successfully. It isn't impossible. Instead, many of you just want to throw all measures away in order to have complete normality in your life even if others have to be shut away entirely in order to facilitate you

Ok well we can't change the past. Track and trace is up and running with humans. I am adhering to social distancing and you're still supposed to do it so?

You basically want what is already happening plus masks?

If you don't want to be locked away then don't. But it's your own personal risk and whether you're willing to take it.