1600 paediatricians have written to the prime minister

[havefunpeleton]

Demanding schools reopen or risk scarring a generation. Reported in Times today.

I am hoping this will be the push needed to ensure this madness ends and all our children can go back to school full time in September.

Evidence? Because I think what actually happened and what you think happened are two very different things.

Seriously do you read the papers, the unions did not want the schools to reopen. Are you actually trying to say otherwise?

Many of our local schools did not provide the R and Y1 provision that was suggested. Liverpool council (and others) for example told schools not to re-open.

@DomDoesWotHeWants

Of course kids will have to go back but people also have to accept that there will be a risk while COVID is around and as most schools cannot build extra classrooms kids will still be in classes of 30.

I very much doubt that. That isn't what's being planned. Unless there is no social distancing anywhere then it will still apply in schools. Why wouldn't it?

It isn't just about keeping children and school staff as safe as possible it's about preventing the spread in the wider community.

What is being planned? I'd love to hear the special insight you have because as far as I can see, there is absolutely no plan for September beyond a very vague Johnson quote of "we will have all children back at school in September if we possibly can".

@weepinggeeenwillow thanks for that I'll take a look now

@OliviaPopeRules

Evidence? Because I think what actually happened and what you think happened are two very different things.

Seriously do you read the papers, the unions did not want the schools to reopen. Are you actually trying to say otherwise?

Many of our local schools did not provide the R and Y1 provision that was suggested. Liverpool council (and others) for example told schools not to re-open.

That wasn't the unions pushing back.

The government told schools to open and then told them under what circumstances - bubbles of no more than 15 children etc.and no rotas.

Schools can't open needing double the classrooms and double the staff as normal. It's not possible. As government didn't relax restrictions what could schools do?

Here is one of just many articles -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52771515
Teachers' unions 'unconvinced' safe to open schools

Teachers' union leaders remain unconvinced that it will be safe to reopen schools in England on 1 June - after the publication of evidence from the government's scientific advisers.

Paul Whiteman of the NAHT head teachers' union says there is still no proof it would be a "wise thing to do".

Some councils also reject plans for a phased return for primary pupils.

The Department for Education has said returning to school is particularly important for disadvantaged children.

OliviaPopeRules

Have you looked up government rules for schools? Have a look and then maybe you'll understand that it isn't possible for schools to follow them but with no extra classrooms or staff.

Paul Whiteman was questioning whether the 5 tests had been met. Demands were being made to prepare for wider opening (which the vast majority of schools were complying with) and announcements were made before the official notification that the tests were met.

Any union that did not question whether conditions were safe for members would not be worth joining.

What is being planned? I'd love to hear the special insight you have because as far as I can see, there is absolutely no plan for September beyond a very vague Johnson quote of "we will have all children back at school in September if we possibly can".

I've already said what's being planned in this area. Workmen are in schools adapting buildings. Teachers are being told to plan for part time teaching of classes of 15 plus distance learning.

I hope a miracle happens. It would be wonderful if all children could go back full time but it can't happen without extra teachers and buildings. Every teacher I know wants to be back and most of them are in schools most days and planning on other days and supporting home learning.

But if social distancing is still judged to be necessary by the scientists then it will be as I said above.

Schools can't open needing double the classrooms and double the staff as normal. It's not possible. As government didn't relax restrictions what could schools do?

A number of councils wouldn't even let them open for 3 years (Y1 and R and Y6) where presumably they should have had enough classroms to accomdate them. And a large number of schools in other councils didn't open for these years. If they couldn't even get councils, schools and unions to agree for these 3 years with the restrictions they knew there was no chance of getting them to agree with 30 kids in a class or alternating classes so it was pointless.
Don't get me wrong the government could be doing loads more to help but it's the hypocricy that pisses me off.

And for all those citing private school fully open, those schools do not have 30 children in a classroom. They have better space and staffing than state schools so they can apply the king of protective measures required by the DFE without reducing pupil numbers in schools.

Most state schools simply cannot afford supply teachers to replace shielding staff and they do not have spare rooms in which to put suddenly double the numbers of classes.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras Yes I know them very well thanks. I would assume in 90% of cases a school that can usually accomodate 7 school years has enough space to accomodate 3 school years split in half. I know there will be some key chilren but also bear in mind a large number of R, Y1 and Y6 kids would not have gone back.

Schools were told how to prioritise and were forbidden from using rota systems that would have enabled them to bring back all year groups. Heads had sensible plans in place to eg offer all pupils two days a week, but then were ordered to offer full-time places or not at all.

Schools were told their insurance would be invalid if they went against these guidelines.

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that children and teachers in 100 schools are currently a part of a study into transmission, we should have the results of this in the summer hols. As a teacher I think this is a really positive step - I suspect the transmission will be low and this will be very reassuring for parents and staff. I hope it enables a full return for September, at least in primary.

The government has failed on trust. You can see this in the low uptake in some schools - we have around 20% back. A lot of parents do not trust the government when they say schools are safe and I think this comes back in part at least to care homes and Dominic Cummings.

@OliviaPopeRules

Schools can't open needing double the classrooms and double the staff as normal. It's not possible. As government didn't relax restrictions what could schools do?

A number of councils wouldn't even let them open for 3 years (Y1 and R and Y6) where presumably they should have had enough classroms to accomdate them. And a large number of schools in other councils didn't open for these years. If they couldn't even get councils, schools and unions to agree for these 3 years with the restrictions they knew there was no chance of getting them to agree with 30 kids in a class or alternating classes so it was pointless.
Don't get me wrong the government could be doing loads more to help but it's the hypocricy that pisses me off.

You're presuming wrong then.

You don't know the circumstances of all schools and their staff. Many schools have vulnerable or shielded staff - depending on the number they may not have enough staff available to cover the classes. Many schools carry long term vacancies, usually filled with supply staff, these might not be available. Other schools have so many KW children in that there was no room or staff to open school to wider classes.

There are many reasons why schools and LAs took the decisions that they did. Without knowing each circumstance I don't see how you can judge?

@OliviaPopeRules

Here is one of just many articles -

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52771515
Teachers' unions 'unconvinced' safe to open schools

Teachers' union leaders remain unconvinced that it will be safe to reopen schools in England on 1 June - after the publication of evidence from the government's scientific advisers.

Paul Whiteman of the NAHT head teachers' union says there is still no proof it would be a "wise thing to do".

Some councils also reject plans for a phased return for primary pupils.

The Department for Education has said returning to school is particularly important for disadvantaged children.

No, I mean actual evidence and not a journalist’s viewpoint of it and small quotes taken out of context. As has been already said above, I would recommend you read what has actually been said by the unions in full. Sadly, the press have been very damaging in their reporting, even the BBC. Education is an easy punchbag.

partystress I never suggested why he was questioning anything, all I did was provide evidence that the unions did not want schools re-opening on 1st of June which another poster had said didn't happen!

But @OliviaPopeRules an infant school with a nursery wasn’t asked to bring back 3/7 of classes, they were asked to bring back 3/4.

@OliviaPopeRules

Hearhoovesthinkzebras Yes I know them very well thanks. I would assume in 90% of cases a school that can usually accomodate 7 school years has enough space to accomodate 3 school years split in half. I know there will be some key chilren but also bear in mind a large number of R, Y1 and Y6 kids would not have gone back.

And again you assume. Why?

A single form entry school of 7 classes needs 7 classrooms and 7 teachers usually.

To accommodate 3 school years they need 6 classrooms plus at least 6 staff (though that means the class teacher can't have a lunch break or toilet break) plus however many staff and classrooms for me children who are a separate bubble.

So, that's 7 rooms and 7 teachers, minimum but no way for a teacher to go to the loo or have a break. That school might well have two or three vulnerable staff. Then it can't open to the three year groups can it? And wasn't the ratio for R different anyway? Regardless, it's not difficult to see where the potential problems are if you don't just assume.

ChloeDecker well it's a qoute directly from him so not sure how it has been misreported. I never said the unions were wrong. If they don't think it is safe that is fair enough but don't come out 2.5 weeks later complaining because kids can't get an education and saying we need to get them back to school. Like I said the government can do loads better but I really don't understand what people expect. School is set up for 30 kids per class (has been for years, rightly or wrongly), people either accept the risk of going back as it has been with extra measures like handwashing or accept that children can only be taught part time. The government cannot build 7 extra classrooms for every school overnight no matter how much money they throw at it.

@ChloeDecker

The government tried to get kids back to school before summer holidays and they had pushback from unions and teachers.

Evidence? Because I think what actually happened and what you think happened are two very different things.

What actually happened is that the government got ahead of itself with a totally unplanned-for pledge to get all primary children back by the summer.

They then rowed back because they realised that this was not remotely feasible under their own guidance. Guidance they have chosen not to change - presumably because they see all the data about the virus. The unions aren't stopping them. They're really not.

I think we need to have no second wave, but yes, open all schools in September. Before then is too much uncertainty. I am shielding a vulnerable child though so I may be rather skewed

The NAHT did not want schools to not open. I have attended all their national meetings. More practical advice on how to open to more pupils safely was offered by the NAHT than the DFE, including vital practical information to protect the families of staff. What the NAHT wanted was time to plan and prepare and to know that the tests had been met.

As it was, the lateness and contradicting nature of guidance meant huge amounts of work were still being done over half term so that more pupils could be welcomed back on 1 June.

*What actually happened is that the government got ahead of itself with a totally unplanned-for pledge to get all primary children back by the summer.

They then rowed back because they realised that this was not remotely feasible under their own guidance. Guidance they have chosen not to change - presumably because they see all the data about the virus. The unions aren't stopping them. They're really not.*

Funny that a number of schools have been able to follow the guidance and bring back these years and so far I have heard no reports of lots of outbreaks (couple of isolated incidents) or children or teachers dying from COVID.

Funny that a number of schools have been able to follow the guidance and bring back these years and so far I have heard no reports of lots of outbreaks (couple of isolated incidents) or children or teachers dying from COVID.

Omg, why's it so difficult to understand? Every school isn't the same. Differences in the health of the staff, classroom layout, number of vulnerable and key worker children wanting places. I'm just reading another thread where a small school has a disproportionate number of staff shielding - they can't open other than for KW children.

It doesn't matter that other schools could do something. That's them. Not every school can because of individual circumstances.

This isn't that difficult to understand is it?

Well said JanetheObscure!

OliviaPopeRules Not funny at all. Some schools are physically bigger than others. Fancy that.