So it's nothing to do with the science then

[bonsaidragon]

The government lied when they said it's all about the science.

From the bbc :


Relaxing lockdown is a risk because levels of the coronavirus are still "very high", one of the government's top science advisers says.
Prof John Edmunds said it was a "political decision" to lift lockdown and that "many" scientists would wait.
The warning comes as Sage, the group of scientists advising government, publish details of their confidential meetings.
One meeting on 23 April estimated there would be only 1,000 cases per day by mid-May.
Instead, estimates by the Office for National Statistics suggest there are currently 8,000 cases per day in England alone. Those figures don't include cases in care homes or hospitals.
'Little time for stringent measures'
"Many of us would prefer to see the incidence down to lower levels before we relax measures," Prof Edmunds, from the London School of Tropical Hygiene and Medicine, said.
Sir Jeremy Farrar, director of the Wellcome Trust and a member of Sage, agreed that measures were being lifted too early, writing on Twitter that the newly-introduced NHS test and trace system needed to be "fully working" before measures were eased.
Newly-published Sage documents also warned of the dangers of having high numbers of cases.

[merrymouse]

In all social situations the 2m distancing has been emphasised as a necessity.

And it is very clear that people are ignoring this. It's pretty much impossible to enforce and it's an unnatural distance for most people in a social situation.

[Sunshinegirl82]

So what is your solution?

[RedToothBrush]

That is the problem.

The government don't seem to be managing it.

Whether its testing or alert levels or apps, the government are setting targets that they aren't meeting, and then carrying on regardless.

And then not being honest about it, leading to this belief that 'lockdown is nearly over' and the crisis is over.

Thats far from the case.

As it stands, if you read the information we have its hard to see us NOT having another wave - which I don't think people are psychologically prepared for tbh. There is a high chance of secondary reimposing of restrictions on a localised basis.

And the concept of social responsibility to others has been dealt a real blow by recent events so people who are low risk won't take precautions because they don't see the point anymore.

[merrymouse]

And there is the thorny issue of how people interpret who they should tell track and trace about.

I think the tricky issue here will be reporting your friends and family when you know that quarantine will cause them hardship because of a missed opportunity or lost income.

That was always going to be a problem, but it's more of a problem now because the government have lost credibility and authority.

[RedToothBrush]

Being honest and managing expectations in a responsible manner would be a good start...

[merrymouse]

So what is your solution?

There are no easy solutions, but I think the biggest problem the government have now is that people are no longer taking this seriously.

For a start I would like them to:

1). Let the advisors speak, even when what they have to say is not good news for the Prime Minister.
2). Prioritise clear communication over protecting an employee.

[RedToothBrush]

Legal and financial protection for those identified by track and trace would also be a good move.

[effingterrified]

Here is what Vallance said about the dangers of coming out of lockdown:

Announcing the 'R number' - the way the virus's ability to spread is measured - was between 0.7 and 0.9, Sir Patrick said: "The number of new infections is estimated to be roughly one in a thousand per week, it means that 54,000 new cases are occurring every week, so somewhere around eight or so thousand per day.

"That is not a low number, so it’s worth remembering that we still have a significant burden of infection, we are still seeing new infections every day at quite a significant rate and the R is close to one. That means there is not a lot of room to do things and things need to be done cautiously, step-by-step and monitored and the Test and Trace system needs to be effective in order to manage that."

Given that we DO NOT have a Test and Trace system yet, that is fairly unequivocal that Vallance thinks that we SHOULD NOT be educing lockdown measures yet.

[Sunshinegirl82]

He said that yesterday in the briefing. It’s hardly evidence of him being muzzled is it?

[ILickSoap]

The experts were muzzled when they were asked if it was ok to drive 60 miles to test your eyesight! cos Boris knew the answer was NO

[effingterrified]

Here are a couple of the numerous articles about Vallance and Whitty which Sunshine mysteriously claims not to be able to find:

news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-boris-johnson-tells-reporter-whitty-and-vallance-wont-answer-questions-on-cummings-11996375


www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/downing-street-sends-away-chris-whitty-and-patrick-vallance-from-boris-johnson-press-briefing-1-6669605

[effingterrified]

About them being muzzled, that is.

[Sunshinegirl82]

I haven’t tried to find anything. You said he was vocal in Twitter about it being too soon. There is nothing on his Twitter that I can find and you haven’t pointed it out. Then you quoted his words at the daily briefing having said he was being muzzled.

What is it that you want to happen here?

[effingterrified]

Here is another of the Government's scientific advisors, Professor Stephen Reicher, saying that:

"Boris Johnson has trashed all the advice we have given on how to build trust and secure adherence to the measures necessary to control Covid-19.”

www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/scientific-advisers-on-lockdown-and-boris-johnson-and-dominic-cummings-1-6668936

[midnightstar66]

Aren't people only flocking to the beaches in England? In Scotland and Wales travel is limited and the beaches are more empty.

We're getting ready to go to a Scottish beach now. We've chosen one we are hoping will be quiet (also happens to be closest) as the popular spots have been heaving for weeks.

[Sunshinegirl82]

The issue of Dominic Cummings is political. PV and CW were asked later whether they were comfortable with being denied the opportunity to answer and they both confirmed that they didn’t want to be dragged into a political row.

I hate DC and think he should go because he is a dick but I am not sure the entire country will abandon social distancing because DC broke the lockdown rules.

[Barbie222]

On many occasions there have been hints that Boris and Cummings have gone inexplicably against the science and made judgments on their own. There have been off the record briefings from ministers who have been left out of important decisions, literally muted in the meetings, if you believe Laura K.

[stayathomer]

It should be about the science except life isnt like th as t where we can focus on one thing. People are rightly divided for different reasons- I'd keep my kids home schooling for ever because I know wh as t it's like to see a child gasping for air, but I have 4 and when I hear of how my friend who has one child who's not coping I know school for a low risk child like her probably makes more sense. Same with work, people have different problems and then there's the people who feel they're being trapped and help prisoner by the govt

[effingterrified]

Members of SAGE criticised the government over its handling of the messaging, with Prof John Drury and Prof Susan Michie complaining that Downing Street had sidelined scientists from the process.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/11/top-experts-not-asked-approve-stay-alert-coronavirus-message-whitty-vallance

This does NOT sound like decisions are based on 'the science' at all - in fact the opposite of it.

It sounds like the Government has been making decisions based on what it want to do, ignoring the science, whilst trying to use the scientists as political cover for their actions.

This will allow them to handily use 'the science' ie the scientists as fall guys when the death numbers then shoot up as expected.

But the eugenicists in government get their cull of the elderly and sick as they wanted, so they couldn't care less.

[Sunshinegirl82]

But what do you want to happen? The government aren’t going to disappear in a puff of smoke.

From your posts I assume you want lockdown to continue. I wouldn’t have been averse to it continuing for a few more weeks but I also accept that it can’t go on forever.

It is not benign and it has a cost. If our only goal was to stop people dying of COVID long term lockdown might be an option but there needs to be a balance.

I’m hopeful the rest and trace system will work better than we anticipate and cases can be kept at a manageable level. I’m also hopeful that treatments and with any luck, a vaccine, will change the landscape considerably fairly soon.

I’m following the rules as are pretty much everyone I know. I haven’t taken my dc to see my widowed mum because they are too young to know to socially distance. My PIL are shielding. We cannot just stand still.

[imsooverthisdrama]

The government don't seem to be managing it.
That's your opinion though isn't it ,
Managing it to me is social distancing, don't mix in big groups , wash hands , wfh if possible etc etc .
We are no where near back to normal yet .
I'm no fan of BJ and certainly didn't vote for him and I'm critical of the certain situations were handled but I think it' managed fairly well .
What do you suggest ?
You can't just say it's not managed well what would you do ? Keep everyone at home until a vaccine. It's not attainable long term we've tried it just so the nhs is not underwhelmed but we all have lives to try and live .
The mortality rate is extremely low for the healthy . I know it's terrible for those shielded or in care homes but who pays for all this care , the economy can't stay at a standstill.

[imsooverthisdrama]

Overwhelmed not underwhelmed

[merrymouse]

The issue of Dominic Cummings is political.

The issue of whether he should be sacked is political.

The questions regarding the rules were not political.

If he had just apologised and the rules had been clarified, some people would have been unhappy that he hadn’t resigned, but the government would not have retrospectively changed the rules.

[Sunshinegirl82]

The rules are the government’s rules. The scientists advise, the government decide. That’s how it works. The scientists did not come up with the rules.

If I was CW or PV I wouldn’t comment on the Dominic Cummings situation for all the tea in China.

[merrymouse]

but I am not sure the entire country will abandon social distancing because DC broke the lockdown rules.

The government have confirmed that he didn’t break the rules, therefore going forward other people have been granted similar latitude to grant themselves exemptions.