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Covid

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I'm finding the reaction to covid utterly bizarre

999 replies

TheDailyCarbuncle · 15/05/2020 21:17

If anyone had told me that healthy, fit people would willingly put their livelihoods at risk and deny their children an education for months on end, that they would send the country into recession putting healthcare, education and public services at risk for years and years to come to avoid getting a disease that had a very very small chance of killing them I wouldn't have believed it. If you'd said people would be afraid to talk to their healthy siblings I wouldn't have believed it.

I had measles in the 1980s as small child - the vaccination programme where I lived was slow to get off the ground - and it nearly killed me. In 1980 2.6 million people worldwide died of measles, a very large proportion of them children. No one ever considered a lockdown, it was never even suggested.

I think all the analysis of this situation in the coming years won't be about the pandemic, but about the contagion of fear that made people so terrified of something that wasn't a real threat to them that they created huge, long-lasting, in some cases devastating problems for themselves, problems that were nothing to do with their virus and everything to do with their reaction to the virus.

OP posts:
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Mumlove5 · 16/05/2020 08:06

Should our future permit an occupation so frivolous, historians years from now will make a big mistake if they blame the nauseating plummet of global GDP in 2020 directly on a novel coronavirus. After all — forgive the repetition, but certain figures bear revisiting — Covid’s roughly 290,000 deaths wouldn’t raise a blip on a graph of worldwide mortality (reminder: 58 million global deaths in 2019). Covid deaths will barely register in the big picture even if their total multiplies by several times.

For maintaining a precious sense of proportion, check out some other annual global fatalities: influenza, up to 650,000. Typhoid fever, up to 160,000. Cholera, up to 140,000. Malaria, 620,000 in 2017, almost all in Africa (so who cares, right?). In 2018, tuberculosis, developing treacherous antibiotic resistance, killed 1.5 million people. Why haven’t we closed down the whole world for TB?

What is destroying lives and livelihoods is not predominantly the illness. The UK economy is not in a tailspin because it can’t survive without the labour of the 32,000-plus fatalities, however much we may miss them as individuals. This is not a natural disaster but a manmade one.

In 2018, tuberculosis killed 1.5 million people. Why haven’t we closed down the world for TB?
I’ll not bore you with the data (that’s what Toby Young is for), but evidence abounds that lockdowns have had a negligible effect on the arc of national infections. (In a recent sampling, the majority of Covid patients admitted to New York hospitals were sickened while ‘sheltering in place’. A growing number of New York doctors want restrictions lifted.) Thus Boris’s new motto importuning us to ‘control the virus’ seems especially ludicrous, given that this infection, if we’re to indulge in ever--popular anthropomorphising, clearly has a mind of its own.

Politics, as opposed to science, does not reward the correction of mistakes, given that correcting a mistake also entails admitting to having made one. Worse, the bigger the mistake, the greater the political urgency of defending it at all costs. Boris and co are therefore obliged to keep justifying the lockdown, which means continuing to exaggerate the contagion’s risk to life. (Case in point: in Sunday’s address to the nation, the PM reiterated Professor Pantsdown’s forecast of 500,000 fatalities, although that modelling has been much discredited. In obeisance to this official Blitzy version of events, the British public is now doomed to act out an elaborate theatre of medical paranoia, because to relax social distancing is also to suggest that maybe much social distancing was dumb to begin with.

I am steeped in dread. I foresee months, if not years, of inane gesturing towards ‘safety’ that makes no appreciable difference to the nation’s health, but does manage to 1) ruin everyone’s enjoyment; 2) perpetuate the socially poisonous notion that one’s neighbour is a threat to one’s very life; 3) maintain an atmosphere of the extraordinary, in which the state may violate civil rights at will; 4) lay waste to what little might otherwise have remained of this country’s economy. The lockdown has been bad enough. Post-lockdown could be worse.

Is there any real science behind this two-metre rule? Or is it an arbitrary convention we’re now stuck with? Recent research suggests that Covid is surprisingly nosocomial (what a wonderful word): spread in the healthcare settings of care homes and hospitals. We’ve also learned that most infections result from the close-up, sustained exposure that we never get with strangers in supermarkets. Yet the two-metre rule that’s consigned us to half-mile queues for Tesco will soon make everywhere else unbearable, too.

With narrow profit margins, restaurants can’t survive serving a fraction of their previous clientele. Half of all UK pubs are already kaput, and the other half will soon go under if lone customers self-isolate over their drinks like sullen alcoholics. Plenty of manufacturing won’t function with employees so far apart. The arts are finished. West End theatres with audiences a third their former size will close. The Albert Hall is also looking at social-distancing bankruptcy, as well as considering the banning of intervals because the loos will have to be shut (sounds relaxing). The Royal Opera House’s streaming of Swan Lake without a live audience makes no money.

Oh, and transport! In London, social distancing is expected to reduce Tube passenger numbers by 90 per cent. Five million people daily ride the Tube, or used to, so how are the other 4.5 million meant to get around? By bicycle. Right. Now, I can assure you that pre-Covid it was already a nightmare to cycle in the capital, as chocka with two-wheelers as the old Shanghai. But forget buses, allowed to carry 15 per cent of their previous ridership. We’re told that to get into a sparsely populated lift, we may have to make a reservation on an app. But never fear. I guess we could always throw ourselves off the balcony instead. Why, with the masky, glovey, get-away-from-me future we’re all facing, taking that shortest route to the pavement starts to appeal.

Worst of all, lest some sector somewhere still struggles back to solvency, we’ll now order air passengers from abroad to ‘quarantine’ for a solid fortnight straight off the plane. Because passengers can promise to quarantine themselves in a particular location, this policy comes with obvious enforcement problems. Quarantines will either be roundly ignored (so what’s the point?), or they’ll require extravagant police resources to keep rapping on doors to ensure some visiting Canadian didn’t nip out for a litre of milk. What this policy is guaranteed to achieve is the total devastation of both the British tourist industry and British airlines, especially since the business travel on which aviation depends will evaporate.

I predict that few of the tedious, costly, time-consuming measures about to be levied on the British public in the coming months will be based on science. We’ll be obliged to make loud gestures of showy compliance, most of which will make no difference to who sickens and who dies, but which will nevertheless irretrievably deep-six this country’s economy and make our daily lives an unremitting misery.

MadamShazam · 16/05/2020 08:10

I completely agree with you OP. The hysteria is astonishing.

daisydukes7576 · 16/05/2020 08:11

I agree wholeheartedly with the OP as I commented earlier in the thread but in the governments defence if you rewind two months ago I don't think they would have got away with NOT having a lockdown.

The attitude towards this whole thing has changed dramatically, to the point where I posted on MN the first day it happened saying it was ridiculous and not a single person hardly was in agreement.

Only now people are getting tired, bored frustrated are they wanting lockdown to end and think it's ridiculous.

My point being if the government hadn't have done what they have they would have been labelled nasty, calculated money hungry, don't care about lives etc etc

So they could never have won IMO

Kitcat122 · 16/05/2020 08:11

Timekeeper 1 I agree. I am under 45 white slim exerciser. I got mild Coronavirus before lockdown and I still struggle to go for a walk with my children. I have no lung capacity. If it wasn't for lockdown and wfh I would have had to have about 6 weeks off work. Husband had it mildly with no long term issues. Teenage son still breathless months on. We need to get the economy going slowly but we must not be complacent about Covid19.

bumbleymummy · 16/05/2020 08:11

@Timekeeper1

“ Most people dying from Covid are not the elderly but are in fact younger to middle-aged people. ”

Ummm...no. Where did you get that from? All the official figures show that the majority of deaths are in the elderly.

How do you know it causes permanent lung damage?

attackedbycritters · 16/05/2020 08:11

I can't be bothered to read a post that makes the rookie mistake of saying the number of deaths is insignificant as justification for what they will then say

, when almost every country in the world has taken some kind of action to significantly limit the number of deaths , when doctors and nurses in many parts of the uk are close to burn out

If you want to justify your statements, start with how many deaths we would have under your guidance not the numbers achieved under lockdown

rawlikesushi · 16/05/2020 08:12

"The peak of infection was TWO MONTHS AGO and we’re still in lockdown??? The fact that the infections peaked before lockdown (peak of deaths = 8th April, average infection to death = 22-23 days) show that the lockdown wasn’t necessary."

I'm actually really interested in this. Could you link?

rawlikesushi · 16/05/2020 08:15

"Covid’s roughly 290,000 deaths wouldn’t raise a blip on a graph of worldwide mortality ."

You're comparing covid deaths over a few months - during a worldwide lockdown - with annual mortality statistics.

rawlikesushi · 16/05/2020 08:16

"In 2018, tuberculosis killed 1.5 million people. Why haven’t we closed down the world for TB?"

Because there's a vaccine.

Aridane · 16/05/2020 08:17

Look to Sweden as a model, where a few sensible measures for distancing have kept the virus in check and yet also enabled immunity in the healthy, younger population

Ha ha ha (hollow laughter)

Sweden has the world’s 8th worst death rate in the world from covid (on a per capita basis)

HildegardeCrowe · 16/05/2020 08:18

Great post Mumlove and very chilling to read. I agree with everything you say. I’m filled with low-level dread, only kept in check because I’m thankfully going to work everyday which helps keep me sane. I’m angered and astonished by the amount of seemingly intelligent people who seem happy to live in their lockdown bubbles with no thought of the future.

Do you think a vaccine will get us back to some semblance of pre-lockdown society?

Mynydd · 16/05/2020 08:19

@Mumlove5 I can only assume we in the UK have never implemented lockdown policies for typhoid and cholera because they weren't spreading through our population at an alarming rate? Yup. We'll all be worse off for awhile and international travel may not be on the cards. That's a direct result of THE VIRUS!!

Quarantine or not, who the fuck would happily fly halfway around the world for a holiday now? You might be clamouring to take a tube at full capacity to the theatre tomorrow. I suspect many others or not, with or without lockdown

feelingfragile · 16/05/2020 08:19

They also happen to be the majority of the working population, you know the ones who pay taxes, so the NHS can function and keep the welfare system going-

You know that people who work in the NHS pay taxes too don't you? They don't just suck the money from the rest of the population.

rawlikesushi · 16/05/2020 08:20

"Great post Mumlove and very chilling to read. I agree with everything you say."

What even when she asks why we're not in lockdown for diseases that actually have a vaccine? Amazing. It just shows that if you say things that people want to believe, they will.

Hunnybears · 16/05/2020 08:21

@EarringsandLipstick

*I cannot believe you actually wrote this!

Anyone dying unnecessarily, in a way that could be prevented, is tragic.

Comparing a child's death to an elderly person's death is pointless - of course there is a desperate layer of grief that accompanies any death of a child.

But what kind of society starts ranking deaths?

As in the UK, here in Ireland, there has been story after story about people's loved ones dying alone, no-one to hold their hand or say goodbye, attempts to say goodbye over a phone or video call, and then funerals taking place without all the usual ceremonies and support from the community. This is tragic. And any society that doesn't recognise this, has lost its way.

(As a side note, I caught up with the BBC 'Hospital' special on Covid last night. I haven't watched part 2 yet. It was incredible TV. The stress and utter exhaustion of the staff was hard to watch. The poor man (88, but well, looked so much younger, completely lucid and alert) who sat all alone on oxygen in an empty ward, no family able to support him, and told (sensitively) by doctors that they couldn't do any more to help him, and if he deteriorated, did he agree to DNR , no intubation etc, was heartbreaking to watch. He was so utterly dignified about the situation - and his situation was deteriorating and calls were made to his family - but thankfully, he recovered, which was beautiful. No-one could surely watch that and think 'meh, sad but not tragic'. Absolutely it would have been tragic if he had died - his wife of 60 years didn't have a phone so he couldn't talk to her. He'd contracted Covid from a dinner party he'd held where an guest attending turned out to have been infected. He was a man fully living and loving life, and I would challenge anyone to say that at 88, if he had died it would have been just 'sad' angry*

I was asked my view and gave an honest answer. I didn’t start to compare the other poster did. If they’re going to give a direct comparison my answer will be very different.

I’m not the only one that feels that it’s strange that otherwise healthy adults are terrified if catching it and are willing to lose everything financially, on the back if the risk been incredibly small to them and practically non existent to children. Or are they? Perhaps the ones that think we should stay like this for months are fine financially.

I do agree with what you say about the tragedy in the way people have been left to die alone. Yes that’s awful, heartbreaking and I hope they come up with a way to make the final hours of someone as comfortable for people, including having loved ones with them.

But I can’t get upset and feel it’s a tragedy that an 88 year old has died. It’s devastating for the family but it’s not tragic in general terms. A child dying is absolutely tragic and this would impact me so much more.

OneOfTheHerd · 16/05/2020 08:21

Timekeeper1

I totally agree, yours is the most sensible post on this thread

RuffleCrow · 16/05/2020 08:22

You're in a position of privilege if you know nobody affected by this.

There was a measles vaccine available in 1980. You may not have had it, but levels of fear were unlikely to be high because it existed - and it was a very old disease people had been dealing with for hundreds of years. This is brand new.

user1471510720 · 16/05/2020 08:22

People are in inherently stupid. This virus has proved it. Many, many, many people on these boards were and are scared of their own shadow. The truth is our education system is broken because people are unable to think for themselves these days.

The amount of people who do not understand the media’s handling of this virus caused the scared sheep syndrome staggers me.

Sandybval · 16/05/2020 08:22

Most people dying from Covid are not the elderly but are in fact younger to middle-aged people.

No, that isn't true. Why do people insist on making stuff up to sound more apocalyptic? And no, not because young people are worth more than the elderly that it would be worse if it was them, but because it's them we need to be getting back to work, and crap like that is released to try and scare them into not doing so.

mathanxiety · 16/05/2020 08:22

...my point is that there are many empty NHS wards with whole sectors of the NHS sitting around with no patients while people with illnesses are stuck at home, not being treated. How is that a positive outcome? At what point will those people start getting the treatment they need? Or does 'protect the NHS' mean 'forget about being treated because ARRRGH COVID!' forever more?

It's not a given that UK health services should be such a shambles because of the lockdown.

It has happened because the UK - almost alone in the developed world - has a government which couldn't organise a dog fight.

Laniakea · 16/05/2020 08:22

“ Most people dying from Covid are not the elderly but are in fact younger to middle-aged people. ”

^that’s completely untrue & talking bollocks like this ignores those who are truly vulnerable to becoming horribly ill.

Mumlove5 · 16/05/2020 08:25

@HildegardeCrowe

Thank you. I didn’t write it.Smile

Mekw · 16/05/2020 08:28

I agree OP. I actually think lockdown was needed to not overwhelm nhs but in terms of the future now I'm not sure what people expect - we can't stay like this until a vaccine that may never even come! We have to get going again at some point and I think as long as the vulnerable are still shielding then the rest of us can try to get the country moving. The thing getting to me at the min is the shaming going on about sending kids back to school. I understand people not wanting to send kids back and that's fine but some people need to but are being shamed for it. Theres so much online of people opinions and what's right/wrong and it just annoys me. Everyone's circumstances are different and so people have to do what's right for them.

MeganBacon · 16/05/2020 08:29

Sweden has the world’s 8th worst death rate in the world from covid (on a per capita basis)
The point is that it's no worse than many others that did lock down. It was always a sensible strategy to safeguard the vulnerable, but allow the rest to carry on. Sweden's economy will suffer anyway because of global downturn, but if we had all kept going to the same degree, deaths would be no different and the economy would be better.

I agree totally with the OP. Those in good health need to get back to work, if they haven't been working all through as many of us have.