I'm finding the reaction to covid utterly bizarre

[TheDailyCarbuncle]

If anyone had told me that healthy, fit people would willingly put their livelihoods at risk and deny their children an education for months on end, that they would send the country into recession putting healthcare, education and public services at risk for years and years to come to avoid getting a disease that had a very very small chance of killing them I wouldn't have believed it. If you'd said people would be afraid to talk to their healthy siblings I wouldn't have believed it.

I had measles in the 1980s as small child - the vaccination programme where I lived was slow to get off the ground - and it nearly killed me. In 1980 2.6 million people worldwide died of measles, a very large proportion of them children. No one ever considered a lockdown, it was never even suggested.

I think all the analysis of this situation in the coming years won't be about the pandemic, but about the contagion of fear that made people so terrified of something that wasn't a real threat to them that they created huge, long-lasting, in some cases devastating problems for themselves, problems that were nothing to do with their virus and everything to do with their reaction to the virus.

I agree with you too op. 100%. But you’re brave saying it on mn because the shout-you-down crew will flatten any question on this.

There is a definite line, literally overnight of life before and after lockdown. We’ll never be the same again. I keep looking at what we are now and where we’re headed in disbelief. And it scares me more than the virus. By the time we accept we must live alongside this as we have with other viruses I’m not sure there will be much left.

FUCK THIS SHIT! there that felt good. Tired of waking up to this reality! What on earth is going on with schools society etc just can't take this no more !

"No, I will never agree to utterly fucking young people for the off-chance of a few, I just won't."

Maybe try to imagine how fucked the young people would have been without any measures being taken. Not in terms of their own death, maybe, since they're low-risk of course, but on a societal level - the running of essential services, ensuing economic hardship and so on.

It does seem like a bit of an extreme reaction - especially keeping the lockdown going on for this long and planning to keep dragging it out. We don’t know how many people have had mild/asymptomatic cases. I reckon we’re going to find out that a decent number of the population have already got immunity when the antibody tests are rolled out. Iirc around 70% of swine flu cases ended up being mild/symptomatic but at the time only the deaths and dire predictions were plastered all over the news. We still didn’t lockdown the world though....

Read some statistics or you'll make yourself sound daft.

Already have, thanks much.

asymptomatic*

"But you’re brave saying it on mn because the shout-you-down crew will flatten any question on this."

Or the 'can read and understand facts, history, science and maths' crew.

Shouting you down is easy because you don't have any facts whatsoever on your side, you just don't like hearing it.

Okay, imagined it, raw, just for you, not very fucked. It's not the Black Plague.

Agree with you OP. I didn't feel like anything could split the country as much as Brexit, but Covid is doing a good job. I think we have to get the country moving again, but as soon as you say that you are condemned as an evil person who puts economy over lives. If the economy nosedives, poverty will increase and lives with be lost. We have to find a way to live with this disease (as you say like our grandparents generation lived with measles, polio, mumps). I think a lot of people think there will be a vaccine by September, and I am sure we all hope there is a miracle and it happens, but we can't plan on the basis a treatment/vaccine is round the corner.

"Already have, thanks much."

And you really reached the conclusion that lockdown wasn't necessary? How psychopathic.

It will cause hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Based on which official calculations?

My great grandchildren will still be dealing with the effects of it.

This is over the top dramatic and untrue. Even the effects of the great 20's crash only lasted 10-15 years. It might have lasted longer than necessary because of the second world war. So realistically this crash won't be longer that 10 years. It might even be shorter because we learned from the 20's crash that investing extra in jobs works.

The truth is somewhere in the middle but I agree with op, and we need to quickly move on from this now. Look to Sweden as a model, where a few sensible measures for distancing have kept the virus in check and yet also enabled immunity in the healthy, younger population. If this goes on and on, the resulting deaths from low tax take, unemployment and poverty will be far more damaging to the population than anything covid could wreak. We are a bit better prepared now, testing is up and running, the antibody test with us shortly and all the clinical trials for reducing viral replication and preventing the inflammatory response should start reporting back.

There is a middle ground. I was in favour of a short, sharp lockdown but now we need to be focused on returning to a normal life, without unnecessary hysteria.

We need to focus on protecting those who need to be protected, while encouraging others to resume normality. We also need to make sure that the NHS starts to work again otherwise deaths from other causes will rocket. Both because the NHS is refusing normal care and also because of the economic damage and the grave damage to young people whose education and prospects are being destroyed when they face no risk.

Here on mumsnet, any good news is jumped on and dismissed. We should focus on that the risk to healthy under 45s is minimal and allow them to get to work and resume their lives.

We should protect the elderly which is not the same as protecting the NHS. The government prioritised protecting the NHS over saving lives. This meant that they did not admit many covid patients until it was too late to help them and even worse, discharged elderly patients with covid to care homes so that they increased the risk to the most vulnerable. I was pleased to see that protecting the NHS has been dropped as a slogan as it in many cases was the opposite to saving lives.

There also needs to be more up to date look at the virus. The 500,000 from the Imperial model is almost certainly nonsense. The exact same model predicted 40,000-60,000 deaths for Sweden from their current strategy and they have 3,000 over half of which are care home residents.

There is also evidence that spread in London is low because there is already a good degree of herd imminity. And yes, that can only be explained by those who have already had the virus having some degree of protection. This is great and means that more of us can go out to work and our children should all be getting back to school and being allowed to see their friends.

Thanks OP - totally agree. The media has loved this. Brexit has gone quiet and they needed a focus. If you watch/read/listen to any news you are left with the impression that if you have any contact with anyone you will get the virus, have to go to an overcrowded hospital and then die. The reality is so different but doesn't suit the kind of sensational journalism we have nowadays. They are cultivating an epidemic of fear.

People are scared of a virus which is still highly unlikely to leave them needing any kind of medical treatment beyond paracetamol (it still is the case that the vast majority of sufferers have mild symptoms). Yet people have always been happy to make risky lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking, eating too much, eating junk) which are far more likely to kill them.

Lockdown will destroy many more lives than the virus. Many people who need medical treatment for other serious conditions are unable or unwilling to access it at the moment. Hospitals are in general not stuffed at the seams. Many non-covid wards are quiet. GPs are desperate for people to attend surgeries as they're also quiet.

The impact on the economy will be terrible. How many companies will fail. Some will discover that they've managed perfectly well with reduced staff and make redundancies or need to cut costs and therefore make redundancies. Higher unemployment will lead to lower wages.

I agree with you Op.

I also agree generations will look back on this and criticise the measures put in place. In part, because they won't remember the fear and the deaths will become statistics. We will also have the deaths as a result of the lockdown (people not going to NHS, lack of treatment, and also from poverty), and they will almost compare and think why did they spend that amount of money - the debt they will be paying off.

We will all have to go back to work and school at some point, this can’t continue much longer.

...we were told it’s no longer about flattening the curve, it’s about “controlling the virus” when all they want to control is us.

Uh-oh. Tin foil hat.

Why is a COVID life worth so much more than any other life? My brother-in-law was killed by a drunk driver. We didn’t ban driving or the sale of alcohol after that.
Because - contagious?
We don't allow people to drive drunk or to operate a motor vehicle without insurance, btw. This is just one example of a basic human right hemmed in by law that most of us who have not swallowed the ravings of Ayn Rand whole accept because we see it is a sensible precaution required for the greater good. There are thousands of other compromises made by reasonable and rational people every day who recognise that living in a civil society calls for a sense of responsibility, not just an appeal to rights.

Sometimes I think I’m in a surreal dream...
Look back at your thoughts on government 'control' for an example of 'surreal'.

...That people are so happy to abandon their liberties and rights for 1/100th of 1 per cent is beyond my comprehension. Every death is sad, font get me wrong. But the living have a right to live. Right now it’s an existence.

The right to life is just that. It's the right to exist. There is no guarantee of any particular quality of life. No guarantee of happiness even, just the right to pursue it if that is what you wish to do. You don't have to. You might have a different set of values.

But the living have a right to live.
That includes the .01% of people currently alive whom you are happy to sacrifice, you know. Given the choice between existence and the alternative I bet I know which one they would choose and it wouldn't be to make sure your industry recovers in fewer than five years.

Sigh...
So much half baked and poorly informed whining about rights and liberties, C&P'd from MAGA sites and with no thought whatsoever given to the ramifications or implications of any of it.

I completely agree and I’m getting angrier by the day about it. I’m gobsmacked that people are so willing to give up their liberties so easily, without thinking about the long term consequences.

The peak of infection was TWO MONTHS AGO and we’re still in lockdown??? The fact that the infections peaked before lockdown (peak of deaths = 8th April, average infection to death = 22-23 days) show that the lockdown wasn’t necessary, and that hand washing, shielding and a bit of social distancing was enough.

If this had originated in a western country, we would not have locked down. Ok, fine, we were being cautious because we didn’t know enough about the disease. But we know a lot more now! We know who’s at risk, and we know that 10s of thousands (at least) more people in the U.K. will die as a result of the lockdown. Not to mention worldwide. The money should be spent on protecting the vulnerable and ensuring that sick people don’t go to work.

I think the government know that they fucked up but will never admit it, so we all have to go along with the charade. I think the pro-lockdown people will finally wake up in a few months once all these delayed redundancies happen.

This thread just goes to show that people lack critical thinking. Lockdown saves lives. Most people dying from Covid are not the elderly but are in fact younger to middle-aged people. Young, fit strapping lads in their 20s and 30s are dying from this. I thought for sure that would stop the nonsense. It seems some would prefer to stick their head in the sand and ignore the REALITY that SCIENCE is telling us.

Anyone who says this is a 'mild to moderate' illness is an absolute joke. It is a very severe illness and it damages your lungs PERMANENTLY. What is it, that people don't understand about that? This is no ordinary virus, this is like putting part of your lungs in a shredder. Even if, by some miracle, your symptoms are mild, you will have lasting lung damage that is permanent. We are beginning to see this now. Just think of the incredible cost to the health services of nations scarred and damaged lungs (which will lead to COPD and make the person more susceptible to other opportunistic infections) will cause?

The fear of Covid is understated, if anything. And I am disillusioned and the ignorance and the inability of people to take this seriously. All because of the beeping economy. Health always comes first, or it should, for people who are rational, have critical thinking skills and have their priorities right.

It does seem like a bit of an extreme reaction - eespecially keeping the lockdown going on for this long and planning to keep dragging it out. We don’t know how many people have had mild/asymptomatic cases.

So you are advocating an end to lockdown while freely admitting that nobody knows how many have been infected or how many are currently infected?

Do you have any idea what this may lead to?

Timekeeper - you have a very strange definition of young middle aged people. 90% of deaths are in the over 65s which is hardly middle aged. Almost half are in the over 85 age group and less than 1% are under 45. Please see the ONS link below.

This is not the impression from the media as they only focus on the rare cases not the majority.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/may/13/pensioners-34-times-more-likely-to-die-of-covid-19-than-working-age-brits-data-shows

The vast majority of people dying are not young!

@mathanxiety yup. Singing straight from the MAGA libertarian choirboook. Luckily minus the guns. Nothing, but nothing, is as important as the economy and personal freedom. The government is neatly excused from being held to account while the media receives all of the rage. Handy little set up.

The risk of death from this for the under 45s is 1 in 100,000. I do not think they should all hide at home and lose their jobs and education for such a small risk.

This is what we mean by hysteria and lack of critical thinking.