So the school guidance is out...

[Norecallpup]

Sorry if this has already been done. I could cry, I really could. Absolutely nothing. Just wash your hands, wipe down surfaces and encourage kids to cough into tissues! I don’t know why I’m shocked. Our government are a bunch of twats!

4/5/6 year olds abroad will have other settings though even if they aren't formal school. They will mix and see peers. The loss of social interaction with peers for months will have a huge effect on development. Look at children in Romanian orphanages for the extremes of this. But we as humans need peer interaction.

One of the safest ways to do this is for nursery to open. Then it's only the children mixing for long periods rather than children and adults. The adults will be briefly there at drop off and pick up.

Teachers will be at risk. Everyone in society is at risk. However it's fast becoming apparent we will end up with most people getting coronavirus. Quick back of an envelope calculations that even once we have a vaccination, it will take approx 6 years at full vaccination rates to "get" 80% of the population. We have to learn to live with this. There is no other way out.

Blimey - children being at home with their families, able to go the park with access to all sorts of interaction through social media is comparable to to being in a romanian orphanage! Now I really have heard everything!

No that's not what I said. I said you can see the extreme version of no social interaction in Romanian orphanages.

Fwiw parks are shut here and so is play equipment.

My 3yo doesn't interact well via social media. Video calls are hard. He wants to see his friends and play with them.

It @hercwasonaroll ...we simply don’t HAVE to compare things to ‘Romanian orphanages’...do we? 🤷‍♀️ We can still go out...to the park, for walks, and I’m hoping not many of us are tying our babies and children into dirty, stinking cots, leaving them with LITERALLY no interaction for days on end. So there really is no need for the awful comparison. None at all if we, as parents, care givers and teachers on return to schools, are doing our jobs at each stage correctly.

The face covering legal case will have been based on religious discrimination. So not very relevant here.

@AuntLouisa Fair enough.

@MonkeyToesOfDoom

Mortality rate of gunshot wounds is 27%.
Moetality rate of covid it somewhere around 1%. The difference is simply that many more people have caught coronavirus than have been shot in the last three months. I know what I'd rather have.

Parks are shut here just saying.

Mortality rate of gunshot wounds is 27%.
Moetality rate of covid it somewhere around 1%

So getting shot gives a much higher chance of dying, so you should avoid getting shot.. so just to clarify, avoiding people with guns, and other dangerous things that could kill, is probably a good idea..

The mortality of covid might be 1% but of those that die less than 1% are people under 60 with no underlying conditions so the actual mortality rate for a healthy under 60 is 0.01% or 1 in 10000 when you factor in age the risk for school age children is more like 1 in 62,000 compared to the normal mortality rate for people under 20 which is 1 in 13,000

The risk of being shot in USA ( which is totally irrelevant to UK school children) is also 1 in 10,000 approx but that doesn't stop people going on holiday to America nor does it stop Americans going about daily lives.

Clearly being in a loving home with daily trips out for fresh air is noting like a Romanian orphanage but there are children in the UK currently confined to one room (studio flats/b and b accommodation), without access to green spaces (all parks closed in several areas and many people don’t have gardens, parents might be shielding and unable to take them out) with limited adult interaction (parents working from home or unable to cope and interact) and little to no peer interaction (no siblings, no devices for zoom) and limited food (fsm voucher scheme not working, parents out of work, parents unable to go to shops due to fear or shielding) and limited stimulation (a lot of children may not have any or many toys or books or even colouring crayons and paper) These kids are having a shit time and it is clearly going to have an effect on them.

They youngest are the least Able to take action themselves to help the situation, this makes getting them into school and nursery key. For the very young the development at this point depends on a stable attachment to a single care giver and they don’t need too much space for their physical development and can be entertained by random stuff like wooden spoons and saucepans - this does take parental input though, however lockdown won’t have changed this too much.

For the slightly older 8+ I would say they have the ability (although they shouldn’t have to) to modify some of the crummy living conditions without help from others - if they can read and have access to school work through a home pack or some internet they can do some study. Tthey can use a phone to call friends or relatives or call child line if it’s really bad. They can (not ideal but possible) prepare simple food for themselves and even take themselves out to go on a walk or too a shop. The older they get the easier all this becomes.

For those ages 3-8 they can’t modify anything, they can’t alert anyone. They are also in a truly key developmental stage where they discover social development and interaction, massive language and skills acquisitions happen - and it might not be possible to catch this stuff up.

These kids are the lowest risk from the disease and have by far the most to loose from lockdown, on a population level they are clearly better served by being in education. Almost all countries returning out of lockdown are prioritising this group for this reason.

Leave them over the weekend for the virus to die then swap back.

The virus lives for longer than that on plastic.

Would it not make more sense for kids to meet up in small groups of 1-2 families/friends and then reintegrate schools? They are going from no interaction with anyone to interaction with a minimum of 15 families.

Surely initial interaction outside of the household could be much more regulated and then they could begin to go back to school.

How long do R/Y1 attend school for in England? With us it is 9-2 but I think it is longer in England.

@MonkeyToesOfDoom

I remember moaning to DH after xmas holidays that reception age daughter went back to into school on the Monday and had a absolutely stinking cold by the Friday as did most of her 21 classmates because as usual one child was brought in sneezing and coughing. It would spread like wildfire in that age group no matter how on the ball teachers are

SabrinaTheTeenageBitch

I know it all too well. First day back after Xmas and I hear one of the parents at drop off,
"Oh he's got a little cold off his grandad, but I've given him so Calpol..."

Sure enough, my girl ends up snotty, aching all over, coughing and crying. I don't trust other parents to keep their kids at home when they're sick.
But those same parents will be along in a minute to justify sending ill kids to school... Probably mention mortgages, car payments etc.. so it's all worth risking health of kids and people around them.

I said you can see the extreme version of no social interaction in Romanian orphanages.

Dear god. Lay off the crack.

These are children who lacked adult care but had a certain amount of interaction with other children also in the same institution but had a lack of other types of stimulation.

Children who are in any way comparible are quite frankly being abused, because even parents who are in serious financial hardship can show love and affection to their children and give them attention. And if a child is in this situation, there is a fair chance that they will be on the radar of social services already or the school will have become concerned about a lack of contact with school during lockdown (and therefore should be being considered and encouraged to return to school BEFORE 1st June if at all possible).

Romanian orphanages?! Do you actually have a clue what you are prattling on about?

If masks would visors be acceptable? They allow the face to still be visible and protect the wearer rather than the other way round

@Nquartz I thought the same.

A thought occurred to me earlier. Maybe the govt have made this schools guidance so dire on purpose because everyone keeps pestering when will schools go back with increasing desperation. So they lay out when it could be and measures for schools to interpret that are so poor teachers and their unions refuse to work and many parents refuse to send their children in. Meaning they kind of remain mostly closed by stealth. Maybe that was their plan all along. Or maybe I’m totally overthinking this and they really are just totally incompetent.

I think I’m one of the only ones on this thread that isn’t really bothered about going back at all. I’m a TA in KS1 and tbh I just want to get on with it now. I’ve been in school for 2 days each week since this started with 20 or so children...socially distanced as much as possible! Lots of hand washing, cleaning tables and hand sanitiser. No one has got anything as yet. Yes there will be a risk when you go back but I’d much rather take that risk now than everyone go back at once in September. You take a risk every time you leave your house.
DS2 is in Year 4 so can’t go back yet but as soon as he can he will be there as will DS1 who is in Year 10.

I’m a children nurse and over the last month we have had to ventilate 6 children and send them to ITU. Four of the children improved and came back to us for continued care, but the other two are still in ITU and seriously ill. All these children presented with Kawasaki symptoms and deteriorated very quickly.

I was trying so hard to look at schools re-opening in a positive light but reading this has really scared me. My DS is year 1 and is missing school but i WILL NOT be sending him if he's to be a government Guinea pig

I was trying so hard to look at schools re-opening in a positive light but reading this has really scared me. My DS is year 1 and is missing school but i WILL NOT be sending him if he's to be a government Guinea pig angry

Only child death statistics are reported as far as I’m aware?

No specific numbers as to how many children are admitted to hospital with Corona/Kawasaki symptoms so the true picture of how children are affected just isn’t being portrayed.

I was sent a link last night to an article in The Mirror about a 14 year old boy who has just died (no underlying health conditions) and it said the hospital (in London) has treated over 40 children with the Kawasaki type symptoms. A good friend of mine has a sister who works in the hospital and she has confirmed it is true.

It feels like the severity/frequency of how often children are being affected is being kept under wraps - probably because it’s disproving the theory that “children don’t really suffer” which is being used to justify the re-opening schools.

Outbreak in a nursery

“mixed” evidence in Europe

At the very least the govt should be responding to calls for absolute transparency from unions.

@HouseTornado yes that's why I asked, I was wondering if there is any data showing that teachers who have remained in school teaching key worker children have become infected. DD's school has remained open with quite a high number of such children attending. Their parents work in hospitals, on public transport etc so likely exposed to the virus. I imagine if there had been an uptick in infections for those teachers we would know.

DD's school sends a newsletter each week detailing what they have been up to with the kids who are in school and this week sent an email and video saying they couldn't wait to welcome back Reception, Y1 & Y6 in June. Perhaps they are privately angry, upset, worried but they are doing a good job of hiding it if so.

I don't think teachers should be forced back into the classroom if they feel unsafe though. The teachers on MN who have reported they are weeping and shaking at the prospect of returning should be allowed to stay at home and then perhaps find alternative work longer term because this virus is going away and I doubt there will be a vaccine rolled out nationwide any time soon.

@HouseTornado yes that's why I asked, I was wondering if there is any data showing that teachers who have remained in school teaching key worker children have become infected. DD's school has remained open with quite a high number of such children attending. Their parents work in hospitals, on public transport etc so likely exposed to the virus. I imagine if there had been an uptick in infections for those teachers we would know.

In general though, especially hospital staff, the key workers are wearing masks and PPE to prevent them contracting the virus - therefore the children aren’t getting it either.

When the schools go back there will be lots of children from different families where parents are out and about in public without masks who are potentially going near lots of infected people and bringing it back to their children.

The two scenarios can’t be compared.

I work in a school and we have been discussing this non-stop.

The government's advice to parents is totally misleading.

Schools will not be socially distancing. I repeat schools will NOT be socially distancing. There will be no staying 2M apart and staff will not be wearing PPE. This is all across England.

We are being asked to prepare plans for the youngest children to come back to school first from the 1st of June. So Nursery and Reception children. This will likely be in groups of 10-15 children in a new concept of 'Social Bubbles' with 2-3 adults per group depending on ratios for ages.

In social bubbles the same staff and children stay isolated from the rest of the staff and children in the school, but within the bubble there is no social distancing in place.

The bubble would be in school for say a week, and then the classroom and resources they use would be deep cleaned at the end of the week in addition to frequent hand washing and cleaning during the day. The following week another bubble would come in to school with year groups potentially working on a 3 week cycle. 1 week in school, 2 weeks home learning.

The staff working with your children may not be the ones they usually have because of staff shortages and the need for more bubbles. Similarly, we are being asked to remove all soft furnishings and small toys from EYFS settings, and children will be eating their dinner in their bubble's classroom, so school life will be very different.

In addition to this, If you have more than 1 child in school in different year groups, there is no guarantee they will be in at the same time. So how parents are meant to work is beyond me.

Our Head is advising parents of this, but also that there are no fines for parents who keep their children at home. Most staff and Headteachers are against the guidance set out by government, as are the unions.

Basically, we don't think it is safe for children, staff or our parents.