For those who want schools to go back..

[pfrench]

.. tell us how you think it should work. Primary or secondary.

In your ideal world.

How would social distancing be adhered to?
How about drop off and pick up?
How would classrooms operate?
How about lunchtimes and breaktimes?
What about after school childcare provision?
What about staff who are sheidling?
What about children who are sheilding?
What about staff who have family members who are sheilding?
Should only some children go back? Who should they be and why?

So many education and school experts on here, it will be interesting to read your safe solutions.

Opening schools partially doesn't solve the daycare problem at all. Like I say, four aspects:

Spread, safeguarding, childcare, education.

There isn't an option that is good for all four. It doesn't exist.

My bottom line is spread. If we get back to exponential spread, then everything so far has been a waste of time and we risk hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths. That can't happen.

If you avoid spread, you won't get childcare. Those two are pretty much diametrically opposite. You can't have something that satisfies both. And more - I think if you try to prioritise childcare over spread, you'll end up with none, because you won't have enough teachers left to staff the schools. I've said before - teachers can't work harder to teach more people, you can't double up classes (at least not without exacerbating the problem), we can't work through our dinner hour and get another class in, and we can't work double shifts. If we go down on numbers, we cannot make them up.

Kitcat - please do read the other thread about the strain of people who have to work and manage kids.

As you are a TA, you have experience of working in schools, some of us don’t.

Likewise, you probably haven’t got the experience of trying to conduct conference calls or deliver high quality online training or high level reports with a toddler in the background.

Telling those people to ‘make memories’ shows that you don’t understand what they are going through, or what a lot of people are experiencing. There’s a lady on that thread who had a miscarriage and was back at work on a call 4 minutes later.

FWIW I’m currently WFH with older children and very part time so I have it much easier than some, but I have taken the time to read what people on mumsnet are writing and try to see things from their perspective, with empathy.

Telling people to ‘make memories’ is a bit 😳

In my mind schools will need to get creative with spaces. So library's, the hall and rooms used for 1-1 work will be converted to temporary classrooms to fit more children in but keep them separate. I am thinking it will probably be groups of 10 ideally, desks 2 metres apart, each child has own set of resources which stays with them all day. Teacher only teaching at the front. Lunch eaten in classrooms and playtime staggered.

This won’t work in a tiny village school at full capacity. There’s no space to place desks 2M apart. Playtimes and lunch are already a staggered due to lack of space.

The way to create extra space is by having fewer children.

Does all of this not suggest that there simply isn’t a solution and that they should choose the least worst solution?

Is keeping schools closed the least worst solution?

Probably not - so - was there are so many permutations and so many limitations and idiosyncrasies of each school/building/staff group/population, we should let the SLT decide.

The way to create extra space is by having fewer children

Which I don't think will be that hard if you make school optional until say September (or longer if things aren't more under control) because a lot of parents are terrified and don't want to send their kids back anyway.

Is that the best solution for the children that get kept home? No absolutely not

Will it get schools open and allow those who want to work to do that? Yes.

The way to create extra space is by having fewer children.

How would that work if you have children in different year groups? It won’t help me at all, if anything it’ll make the logistics harder.

The problem with saying use the libraries, halls and rooms that are for 1-1... they don't exist in my huge secondary. The library is a classroom that English teachers rotate through and it is never free, the hall is where drama, performing arts etc teach. The sports hall is the only large room we have, but you can't actually teach in there as there isn't even a Wi-Fi signal is we could get computers and screens etc. And we don't have rooms for 1-1. We have a hub that houses 25 students with maybe 5 TAs and that is how we deal with 1-1. We literally have no spare rooms, demonstrated by having 30 kids in 6th form lab build for 12; they sit at the sinks with a board over them to make a desk, even 1 kid leaning into a fine cupboard. The only saving grace is that Y11 and Y13 have left, so it frees up a few more rooms, but we still need classes no bigger than 10 or they won't fit with a 1 metre social distancing rule. And my biggest class this year is 35, in year 10.

@trustthegenegenie I think you have misunderstood me. I'm not choosing to risk my mortgage!! You called me privileged. I'm just pointing out I am far from it. I have all the stresses that you all have. I'm not liking lockdown, my year 10 is stressing about GCSEs next year, my younger boys are missing school and friends. One is year 6 and we were worried about transition anyway and if no school could be a nightmare. So I have all the stress and worry all you guys have. Awake at night worried about our finances. I just have the mindset that we have come this far and need to get rid of this horrendous virus so we just have to make the best of it and do it and yes I want to try and make it a good memory for my kids.

In my mind schools will need to get creative with spaces. So library's, the hall and rooms used for 1-1 work will be converted to temporary classrooms to fit more children in but keep them separate.

I think some people are basing their ideas on massive school buildings! We have one small hall, a library corner (it’s more of a corridor that leads through to the toilets so not an option to block off with children) and certainly no rooms for any 1:1 work!!

Is keeping schools closed the least worst solution?

Probably, yes. Until September when we can see the impact of what other countries are doing.

That’s great for you kitcat.

Not everyone CAN choose to ‘make memories’ with their kids right now. They are in work at home doing high level stuff, under pressure from unsympathetic bosses, in workplaces that aren’t closed.

I am fortunate in that I can ‘make memories’ a little bit, but I’m not advising that to others, as I can understand that not everyone is in my position.

@redtickreturn Abit harsh. OK I work in a school and homeschooling my 3 children all different ages. Dealing with them not always wanting to work and emerging hormones so yes think I do know what I'm talking about. It's hard I know, but there is a very nasty/deadly virus and we need more time to damp it down. I've also had Coronavirus caught at school before lockdown. I'm OK going back personally as I hope I've got antibodies but it is a horrendous illness even some mild cases are awful. We need to lower the risk first

@Kitcat122
Ok - so i guess from this you aren't at risk of losing your job, you haven't got children with SEN who can't work at home due to their needs, you haven't got physical disabilities preventing you from leaving the house, you haven't got mental health difficulties, you aren't experiencing any form of violence or suicide ideation in the house that you need respite from, you've presumably got good internet access and your children actually HAVE some friends and family that they can contact - unless this is your life, you haven't got a clue and making memories shite is quite offensive.

I'm a teacher and also in a vulnerable group. I'm borderline enough for shielding that my Head sent me home a week before schools closed but it was too late, I'd already caught it and spent 6 weeks with pneumonia.
I think we are going to have to reopen schools - actually summer better than September because of the natural break in summer to relower the infection rate, rather than risk a massive second peak when winter pressures are hitting. But, I think we need to do it with our eyes wide open to the realities:

1. It started spreading in my school (huge secondary) in the last week. The kids who caught it were ill for a week. It does affect teens and then can clearly spread it. They are low risk for severe illness but all this stuff about kids not spreading it or getting ill at all is about pre-pubescent kids, not teens. Bugs spread like wildfire in schools, we need to be realistic that this one will too and infection rates will soar. We will need to be prepared to close again.

2. Social distancing in schools is not possible. Teens will sneak kisses behind the bike sheds, hug their friends thinking they are invincible, our classrooms are too small, our corridors too narrow and there arent enough toilets. We need to be real about this.

3. Clearly vulnerable people who arent shielded will have to work. We do not have enough teachers to run without what is actually quite a large number of staff. These staff members (like me) will be at risk of catching it, potentially with a high viral load, and being severely ill from it. There is a teacher shortage and we cannot get supply teachers to cover this number especially when you consider the demographic of supply teachers who are often stepping down to retirement. (shielded, maybe could be covered)

4. staff sickness. Teachers will get sick, we have to be prepared for lengthy sick leave. Those in the vulnerable group may not die but they have a high chance of needing a significant amount of time off and a long recovery. As more staff get sick we wont be able to cover them and I think we will have 4-6 weeks in school with exponential growth and increasing sickness absence until we are forced to close again. The government may try to time this to coincide with the summer but it will almost certainly happen.
   Cover will probably not be from subject specialists and they won't know the children so educational provision will be worse than it is online.

Long post, but these are the realities we need to be aware of when we do re-open.

I think we’re going round and round about social distancing and space. No it won’t work. Especially the arbitrary 2m which is based on zero science.

Just have certain years back part time from June. Lots of handwashing. Classes eat and play together at lunch so less mixing. See how that goes for 6 weeks.

You are right fedup, if we are only considering schools, kids and the staff in them. In that case, I agree with you. And I could manage. I have two good salaries coming in, a large house, nice lifestyle. I’m a bit miffed that John Lewis is closed but...it’s not the end of the world. I’ll cope!

Unfortunately, what the government has to do, is consider the whole country, whole economy.

So, as prime minister, if you had to get the economy moving and you had to open workplaces, would you open schools and workplaces or keep both closed until September?

Why September?

How would you keep paying furloughed workers without taxes coming in?

Genuinely, what would you do?

I'm bowing out. My comments weren't intended to upset people. I was referring initially to the people complaining about their schools not providing much school work and about people talking about children's mental health. Also having had Coronavirus in our family it's beyond any other worry in my opinion. Everyone good luck with everything and stay safe.

I have to say that I find suggestions that Y11 and Y13 should go back absolutely hilarious.

Aside from there being utterly no point, just how many of them do the people suggesting this think would go in?

*In my mind schools will need to get creative with spaces. So library's, the hall and rooms used for 1-1 work will be converted to temporary classrooms to fit more children in but keep them separate.

I think some people are basing their ideas on massive school buildings! We have one small hall, a library corner (it’s more of a corridor that leads through to the toilets so not an option to block off with children) and certainly no rooms for any 1:1 work!!*

Absolutely this!!! Our tiny library fits approx 4 children comfortably, it is also the 1-1 room. Corridors are narrow. There are only one set of loos for the entire school of around 80 children, not including disabled toilets and staff ones.

In fact, if y11/13 stay home, it creates more space in the school!

All these comments about kids sitting further apart in class being an option 😂are people having a laugh! Our kids are sat on top of each other at the best of times. Classrooms are too small to allow for social distancing if a full class is in, end of.

@BriefDisaster I couldn’t agree more!!

I will be happy for my child to attend his usual school in September as he’s currently at a hub.

It’s disgusting that some teachers are expecting special treatment I can’t understand it so far children are low risk.
Many people are having to go to work and at least one of us will have a vulnerable person in our family.

The short and long is if we all stay home past September I’m not sure these people on Furlough will manage after Sept.

How would you keep paying furloughed workers without taxes coming in?

Furlough is not an entitlement. It is at an employers discretion. It is done when a company is shut or running a skeleton staff. At the employers discretion. Not the governments. No one is entitled. That’s not how it works. It is not like benefits.

When companies reopen they will expect their staff in when people can’t work from home, be it non essential shops, factories etc, They will stop furlough. They need their staff to operate.

you can’t send everyone home because one teacher has tested positive. Can you imagine if that was the case in the other industries working currently? I work in a care home 3 staff have tested positive have all their colleagues been sent home to isolate! No way as there would be no staff to look after residents.

This has literally made me cry. Can you imagine reading that if your elderly relative is stuck in that care home? I'm sure this amounts to criminal negligence and the poster is proud of it as if somehow potentially exposing society's most vulnerable to a disease that may kill them is some kind of heroic 'cracking on'. No wonder so many are dying in care homes.

It confirms for me that I would literally prefer to be put down than end up in a care home subject to this complete and utter disregard.

The only way to it is to say that schools will be childcare until t h e summer holidays. Anyone who NEEDS to put their kids somewhere can now access a hub. People will be able to go back to work if necessary, but the pressure to 'teach' part classes etc will be off and we can.still do our online lessons.

As the burden of the Rota would fall mainly to primary teachers, maybe ks2 kids could go to local..high schools. And yes, if it's childcare, others could be drafted in and dbsd. I know quite a few outdoor activities providers struggling at the moment.