University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

What advice? Tell her to complain - yes, she's done that, several times over and got nowhere other than apologies

You have been given so much more information than that.
But that's not what you want.

And not all complaints result in a financial payout. An apology and actions put in place to prevent the same happening again is a standard response.

An apology and actions put in place to prevent the same happening again is a standard response.
But the only way such complaints ACTUALLY have an effect is for the system to be public and transparent.

Could somebody show me where that is happening in the University sector (a link to a complaints outcome page - the equivalent of local government public interest reports or NAO reports)

as all I've ever heard in real life is stuff being swept under the carpet and lessons being rigorously ignored

Here we are @TheMerrickBoy

At the moment, at my place, our librarians are all working flat out from home on phones & email, advising students. Sometimes students have not used the library all year, but this is panic time. And if students desperately need a text, our librarians are going in to the library - with a security guard (none of us is allowed to enter campus unless we're authorised by security & the Registrar and then only for COVD-related research) to get the hard copy and scan portions needed.

And I imagine this is the case all over the country.

And not all complaints result in a financial payout. An apology and actions put in place to prevent the same happening again is a standard response.

And how does that redress negative impacts on the student that is complaining? How does the university for example, trotting out the "lessons have learned" standard non apology so favoured by many institutions, actually repair the damage to my daughter's education? That is what is needed - not financial compensation, not an apology, but an actual restitution that removes the damage done and restores the students to the place that they would have been had the "mistakes" or poor management not have happened.

I think all @hearhoovesthinkzebras needs to hear is ‘we believe you’ . No caveats .

I think it’s really hard to feel so powerless and then to be told well that’s not happening here so you’re in the wrong your child is clearly negligent themselves etc etc. The academics on here are obviously doing a fab job but the fact is that many institutions of all kinds, not just universities, are not doing so well, probably through no fault of their own . It is frankly a pretty mixed bag and we all need to try to be accepting of others experiences.

This is an extraordinarily difficult situation from all sides , yes I am sure there are students who are not engaging but there are also ones who are struggling, there are universities which are supportive of their staff and some that are not , likewise for students . There are staff who are fired up by the opportunities ( as some have described here) and staff who are overwhelmed and worried for their jobs and families.

Yes, our librarians are doing all of that, and if a text was set on the reading list originally, it'll be in the library and can feasibly be scanned, or if it is available as an ebook that can be purchased (which is what I said before). That's not quite the same as saying any book that exists in the world can be made available online by magic. I'm sure it's perfectly likely that the book Xenia's son needs is in the library and that they'll help if they can.

But are we talking about sector wide complaints or complaints about individual academics?
I've been subject to two complaints this year. One was deemed malicious and in the other case the student was outright lying and narrowly avoided being asked to leave due to harassment. Both of these were subject to a full investigation and a three stage complaints procedure. I suspect one will actually go to the OIA.

But I guess you'd say that's my university brushing things under the carpet??

@Peaseblossom22

Thank you. That is it in a nutshell.

And how does that redress negative impacts on the student that is complaining? How does the university for example, trotting out the "lessons have learned" standard non apology so favoured by many institutions, actually repair the damage to my daughter's education? That is what is needed - not financial compensation, not an apology, but an actual restitution that removes the damage done and restores the students to the place that they would have been had the "mistakes" or poor management not have happened.

Please give an example of what you actually want to happen? Other than a refund of fees ( which would be pretty pointless) or resitting an entire year ( not what students ,in the main, want)

I know of a university that is providing intense careers support for the graduates of 2020 for two years after graduation.Including full access to university services.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

@SueEllenMishke

I am absolutely certain that not all students are willing to learn and that must be annoying at best, soul destroying at worst.

However, it's not really the point with regard to the overall provision for students this academic year - and surely most students are engaged, to a greater or lesser degree. In my DD's case, I'm not going to claim that she is in any way devastated by the cancellation of so many seminars this year , but obviously she hasn't had the chance to build up her skills in the same way that first years normally do.

However, it's not really the point with regard to the overall provision for students this academic year - and surely most students are engaged, to a greater or lesser degree. In my DD's case, I'm not going to claim that she is in any way devastated by the cancellation of so many seminars this year smile, but obviously she hasn't had the chance to build up her skills in the same way that first years normally do.

We get that, we really do. The universities i know well are doing what they can to mitigate this. For many, this means focusing on 2020 graduates at the moment for obvious reasons.

and i'm talking in skills and preparation for the labour market here.....

and I can only speak for the universities i work with or know well.

Could somebody show me where that is happening in the University sector (a link to a complaints outcome page - the equivalent of local government public interest reports or NAO reports)

The OIA decisions are all available online, easily googleable

Merrick, probably. I am not into what he is writing to know exactly what books he needs (other than generally as do I as a lawyer who prints everything off) working from a pdf being very hard for him. He probably could ask the librarian and his supervisor has been very helpful too.

He is also disappointed about lack of university clubs too as he had only got into them this year.

Anyway things going wrong in life, sickness and no jobs for graduates never mind academics losing their jobs are just the bad things that happen to most people in a long life and it is how we manage them that matters, rather than assuming they will never happen to us. I am sure they will all be fine. I don't want him to do this pointless gap year with 2 friends - working then flying abroad in Jan 2021 when he could go to law school for 2 years with his twin whilst living at home but it's not life and I don't need all the children to be lawyer clones so it's fine. I think they cannot plan the gap year properly for a month or so anyway until they know the jobs market for earning money quickly jobs nor the market for travel in the gap year in 2021.

Agilelass
Oh, you mean this page
www.oiahe.org.uk/resources-and-publications/case-summaries/
The one where under "Supervision" there has not been a publication since 2015
WOW, that makes me feel better

Gosh I’m so so sorry. Let me flagellate myself right away. Of course I bear personal responsibility for what grounds on which the students choose to frame their complaints to the OIA. Mea maxima culpa.

Agile
Nice sarcasm
which STILL does not address the fact that many parents and students are
rightly
very angry and concerned that the course they signed up for ( including labs, practicals, fieldwork, placements, access to equipment ) is NOT the one they will be getting for those same fees

If you think your course is tickety boo, that is great
but the STEM subjects that will save us from COVID
and then Climate Change
are not

Humanities courses vastly cross subsidise STEM ones, so don’t worry - £9250 is way below what a STEM degree actually costs. You DC is still getting a bargain!

but the STEM subjects that will save us from COVID

No you're quite right. We should drag all our medic and biosci academics back into the lab along with all their students. That makes far more sense than obeying this stupid governments laws. Hey we can probably experiment on ourselves as well and see how quickly the kid with leukaemia gets COVID, and whether he or the lecturer with the lung transplant dies first.

Fabulous idea. Meanwhile back in the real world we all acknowledge that the current situation is fucking awful for everyone in one way or another. Universities are suffering. Academics are suffering. Hospitals are suffering. Schools are suffering. Chefs are suffering. Students are suffering. And try and mitigate for that the best we can given the time and resources we have available.

The fact remains though that students shouldn't be expected to financially prop up institutions.

I can't think of any other area where people are being expected to pay for something that has been cancelled or substantially reduced due to the lockdown. It seems like universities are viewing students as cash cows and because they have them over a barrel will force them to continue to pay full fees despite receiving a less than optimum provision.

Tell the government that hear
They removed funding from universities and transferred it to students.
Most of us would agree but were held over a barrel by the correct system.

*current system not correct

Are you telling the government Sue?

Ultimately, you need volumes of students showing up each year. They really have a lot of power, if only they realised it. Hopefully, lots of students seriously consider going to university in September because, frankly, they won't be getting a good experience. They'd be better off deferring and going once things have settled. In particular healthcare students are going to be badly affected if they can't complete clinical hours, as current students aren't able to do.

Universities do ( and did) tell the government their views on the introduction of higher fees.
This needs to come from VC level.
I've done my bit by ensuring I work for an institution that treats it's students well and gives them good value for money. This was really important to me.
As an ex-careers adviser I also ensure the advice I give about my university and specifically my course is impartial and transparent.
All potential applicants for September have had information from me on the current situation. I've explained what all scenarios will look like and given them the opportunity to defer if needed.
I've also recommended other courses to students if I think they're more suitable.
We're not all mercenary.