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University Fees for on-line Lectures

999 replies

Kastanien · 04/05/2020 09:00

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

OP posts:
AgileLass · 06/05/2020 15:31

That’s simply NOT true. Plenty is being done. Assessments have been changed. No detriment policies introduced. Exam boards will be looking carefully at cohort and individuals marks, and intervening accordingly.

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 15:34

In addition to everything I said I was doing to support my students my university is also dong very similar to chemengers

Grendlsmother · 06/05/2020 15:38

So .... what's the difference between an organisation like The Open University, which is a specialist in online provision and continuing a degree with universities who are not used to or prepared for now being online providers?
Why wouldn't any student withdraw and reapply to start their degree with institutions that can deliver online education effectively?
Surely prospective new students need to see how the university they are consider applying to is currently performing?

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 15:40

Grendlsmother we aren't seeing remote delivery as a permanent change. We are hoping to get back to normal or as close as at some point in the not so distant future.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 15:42

AgileLass

It is true, in some universities. Just because it's not your experience doesn't mean it isn't happening. There is a wide variation in what is happening. All of my dds school friends are reporting a varied mix of provision and support. Some have had exams cancelled, some have 24 hours to do exams, some 48 hours. For some no detriment is applying to dissertations, for others it isn't. Some were affected by strikes, others weren't. There's no cohesive response that is happening.

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 15:46

Publicly raise the detrimental effect that will have had on final year students.

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras this is a very bad idea. Think about it strategically, rather than through your red haze of resentment at ALL universities and EVERYONE who works in them.

Do you really want this year's cohort of graduates across the UK to graduate with a degree that every university says publicly has been damaged? Do you really want every 2020 graduate to be regarded as having a degree which is not worth anything?

Which is what your suggestion would lead to.

Instead, why not focus on the period from September 2017 to 22nd March 2020 when we were teaching on-campus and in person. All the opportunities offered by departments, individual academic & professional staff, sports facilities, student unions, volunteer opportunities, intern opportunities, clubs & societies, meeting and working with one's brightest peers, learning to live and thrive independently.

Instead of the last 6 weeks, which are unprecedented, leaving the whole world uncertain of how to respond, how to keep afloat all the things we took for normal, all the while trying to avoid catching a highly contagious virus which either kills or leaves severely affected up to 20% of the people who catch it.

How about that?

But from your posts on this thread, their resentful, antagonistic and envious tone, I doubt that's what you'll be thinking about.

JangoInTheFamilyWay · 06/05/2020 15:47

Universities are all separate competing businesses. Most are doing similar things but are in no way required to. If the university you are talking about isn't, then complain to them and about them loudly, bring in the NUS - your child is a member

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 15:48

But that's because we are all independent, autonomous institutions.
It's not possible to have 300+ providers offering literally thousands of courses offering a the same response.

SueEllenMishke · 06/05/2020 15:50

Do you really want this year's cohort of graduates across the UK to graduate with a degree that every university says publicly has been damaged? Do you really want every 2020 graduate to be regarded as having a degree which is not worth anything?

This is a really important point. My husband runs a university careers service and they are being very careful not to name this years graduates as a lost generation. It's not helpful for anyone.

JangoInTheFamilyWay · 06/05/2020 15:56

"university careers service and they are being very careful not to name this years graduates as a lost generation. It's not helpful for anyone"

Excellent point, I withdraw my previous suggestion. Public complaints should only be an absolute last resort

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 16:11

My DD has had no seminars, no 1-2-1 no study groups, no normal library access with full use of resources

I'll say this very imply:

Because there is a virus which is highly contagious and a threat to life. It is a new virus (novel corona) for which there is no vaccine.

We are all in lockdown.

There are laws enforcing this lockdown.

We are working from home to try to replace as much as we can of the usual practices of this part of the academic year.

There is a killer virus. We are in government-authorised lockdown.

I hope that was simple enough for you to understand. It's funny - all of my students understand this and are doing what they can under the circumstances. My colleagues and I are doing what we can under the circumstances.

Glower · 06/05/2020 16:12

Solutions? I would reopen universities on 1 June for the rest of term although leave the exams on line as currently planned as it is too late to change that now. I would open university libraries next week. I would also start next term as normal.

But it’s not up to universities to decide this - they were instructed to close and have to wait for the government to allow them to reopen. Most terms finish for summer early June anyway.

We tried to impose social distancing in our library pre-lockdown so as to stay open for as long as possible but many students would not follow it. I imagine we’ll be cautious about re-opening the physical building in light of this.

We have excellent online resource provision already but have had our budget slashed by a massive amount which limits what we can do. We’re facing a huge loss of income because of reduction in international students, rent refunds given for third term accommodation, loss of commercial income (hosting conferences etc.). I’m sure this will have to be made up for by many of us losing our jobs. I do genuinely feel for students but I don’t see how universities can take a further hit to their finances. This is a top 10 UK uni fwiw.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 16:15

CatandtheFiddle

She has experienced strike action during each of her three years, plus if you had read my posts, this academic year has had strikes from early November until 8th December and again from mid February to mid March. So, the disruption is hardly only the past six weeks is it? And if you think that people aren't already viewing this cohort's degrees with side eye you're very wrong. People know that final grades are being averaged, that coursework is being taken into consideration and that final exams are open book and allowed 24-48 hours to complete. They're hardly the same standard as past graduates are they?

Xenia · 06/05/2020 16:17

Althouvh Cat only 400 people in the UK under 45 have died of it so for students it is not a killer virus and most of those killed are over 70 or have an underlying health condition or are obese etc.

Glower, I agree they cannot reopen the library until the Government lets them. It is possible that will happen on Monday however although I doubt it. My son was one of the few in the university library the first week of lock down and he said there were 10 people in it everyone very very far apart and it worked fine although by that week most students had chosen to leave. (That was Bristol and their end of term is indeed in June but I am sure those in their final year would like if the lockdown is lifted to get back for at least the last 2 weeks of term surely)

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 16:18

CatandtheFiddle

Yes, thanks for the patronising attitude. Funny how some academics on here say they are offering bit isn't it? Presumably you work for a university offering the same as my dds - not much.

If you can't offer those things them why should students be paying their fees?

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 16:19

And do you not think that access to libraries and to texts, journals etc is quite important

Yes it is. Part of my work is archival. I can't do it, except via digitised resources. Many many archives have now opened up their resources (eg National Records office in Kew, or archive.org). My university has a mass of digital databases with a lot of material. These resources costs hundreds of thousands of pounds annually. It's part of what student tuition fees, plus income I earn from my research grants, pays for.

But

We're. In. Lockdown

Sorry, I can't make it any simpler than that.

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 16:21

That's eight weeks of teaching time that she missed out on. Eight weeks during which there was no feedback nothing

You're basically flat out wrong there. There were not 8 weeks of strikes.

Strike days occurred over 8 weeks, but were not every day in every week. So get it right before you start with your supposed facts.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 16:23

CatandtheFiddle

I know we are in lockdown. We weren't in lockdown for the eight weeks lost to industrial action nor has being in lockdown stopped some of the academics on here from offering a near normal level of service.

And anyone who thinks that this year's cohort of graduates aren't marked is bonkers. Of course their degrees are always going to be viewed with suspicion. Anyone who gets a first, even if always on course for that, will be assumed to have only been awarded it as a result of generous marking.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 16:26

Strike days occurred over 8 weeks, but were not every day in every week. So get it right before you start with your supposed facts.

They occured over eight weeks. My DD missed eight weeks worth of tuition. That's what I am basing it on. The days she was due in for lectures or seminars were cancelled due to strikes and her tutors refused to make up the time because that would negate the impact of the strikes. Those are the facts in my dds case.

TheMerrickBoy · 06/05/2020 16:44

They're not allowed to make up the time, because that would be against every principle and point of a strike.

If I fast 2 days a week for eight weeks, I didn't get no food for eight weeks, did I?

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 16:48

People know that final grades are being averaged, that coursework is being taken into consideration and that final exams are open book and allowed 24-48 hours to complete

These things are standard in my discipline, both at my place and nationally (I know this because I chair a national teaching organisation in my field).

Degrees in most if not all English, Welsh & NI universities have always been based on various arithmetic calculations of all marks achieved in 2nd and 3rd year (Scotland has a different system). Different universities have different systems for acknowledging what we call "exit velocity" - that is, ensuring that the fact that - generally - most students know more and thus perform better in their final year, than previous years.

Open book & take home exams are a regular and legitimate pedagogical tool, particularly in essay-based exams. If a student hasn't assimilated and processed knowledge and thought about it in complex ways, they won't do very well in an open book or 24 hour exam.

Actually, pedagogically, it can be argued (some education experts do) that a 24 or 48 hour open book exam (a 'take home exam' we called them when I worked in Australia and the USA) is a far better indication of a student's real, processed, and permanent learning, than an exam crammed for, and blurted out onto the page in 3 hours.

Open book/24 hour exams can better replicate conditions in modern workplaces. I can remember my A Level Chemistry teacher encouraging us to check our knowledge in lab reference books, rather than rely on our wonky ability to memorise the periodical table of elements, for example. For our exams, we had to memorise it, but he told us that standard lab practice was always to check.

Or I sometimes in the academic workplace, get a long document plonked on my desk/computer screen, and I need to read it and produce a precis for colleagues, or develop a policy recommendation etc etc. Pretty much an open book exam, drawing on my deep background processed knowledge of a field.

And so on.

TheMerrickBoy · 06/05/2020 16:50

Althouvh Cat only 400 people in the UK under 45 have died of it so for students it is not a killer virus and most of those killed are over 70 or have an underlying health condition or are obese etc

Well I suppose if the govt agrees with that they might allow us to re-open on 1 June, but I think it unlikely! The virus is contagious so people (eg healthy students) can give it to other people (eg those over 70 or with an underlying health condition or who are obese).

CatandtheFiddle · 06/05/2020 16:53

only 400 people in the UK under 45 have died of it so for students it is not a killer virus and most of those killed are over 70 or have an underlying health condition

@Xenia your lack of consideration for university staff is callous. Staff will be older, and may have underlying health conditions.

As do many undergraduates.

Shall we put all the undergrads with diabetes, or CF, or cancer in remission, or with HIV/AIDS - yes, shall we out all those undergrads at risk?

Callous isn't enough of a description of your attitude here.

Newgirls · 06/05/2020 17:06

No one wants loss of life for goodness sake. But being slow to reopen will lead to job losses for campus non teaching staff for a start. The focus should be on how to open as safely as possible not a flat ‘won’t do it’ which seems to come across here

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/05/2020 17:11

If I fast 2 days a week for eight weeks, I didn't get no food for eight weeks, did I?

What? If you were only allowed to eat on two days per week, but on those two days each wool no food was available, then you wouldn't have eaten for eight weeks would you?

Students aren't in uni every day are they? If your timetabled days were the ones affected by strike days it doesn't matter what happened on the other days does it? Your days were cancelled therefore you had no tuition. The number of days increased each week anyway, so your chances of not being affected was low.