University Fees for on-line Lectures

[Kastanien]

Latest this morning(sorry if it is already on here, I checked and could not see a thread)
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-52506283

Just wondering how those of you with DC due to start (or return to Uni) in the Autumn feel about full tuition fees for on-line learning?
I feel there should be a reduction as the teaching is not the same on-line as face to face.

It seems as though students need to be better informed about their rights. I would never have bothered complaining about my lectures as I was sure they'd just tell me to "like it or lump it". Maybe I was wrong about that.

but this cohort of students are not getting some of them

Probably only for 1st term of the 20-21 academic year - 12 weeks or so. The Summer Term of the 19-20 academic year is an examination & assessment term - there's generally (in the UK) very little large or small group teaching done. There is a lot of one to one tutorial teaching and marking, and advising via personal tutorials.

Then we are likely to go back to in person teaching, and academic & professional staff will have to manage students' health & safety as well as their own.

So please, let's keep this in proportion.

There is a lot of one to one tutorial teaching and marking, and advising via personal tutorials. I would say this was more crucial than group lectures which mostly involve listening to a general presentation. The 1-2-1s question/answer/feedback interaction can't be replaced with online videos.

Children of 17 do not suddenly become fully functioning and independent adults at 18

Thing is, if you think your DC is not going to cope at university, perhaps do the parenting bit, and work with them to see why that might be, whether a gap year would help, what other kinds of strategies you as a parent could undertake to prepare your DC.

It is not the job of academic staff, nor of professional services staff (are are all-round wonderful at my place) to do your parenting for you.

I've had students try to commit suicide during the time I was teaching them (fortunately it's only happened about 3 times in my career, but multiply that by all academic staff across the country). All of the students had entered university with quite severe MH issues, and a couple fought to stay at university against all advice from academic staff for their academic progress, and professional health advice.

Parents need to parent. Our job is to educate.

@CatandtheFiddle

Until there is a vaccine, no one is going back to how Uni's used to operate.
It would just be nice if the Uni staff on here could at least acknowledge that there are some serious issues with what is happening now, maybe things will improve in a year or two but that doesn't help students in the meantime, just financially, many parents have already committed for accomodation 20/21, how will that work out?

i doubt very much if cv regulations will allow 6 or 8 students, from all over the place, to suddenly be allowed to live in the same house in just a few months time.

Students will be charged around 5k for that unused accomodation and paying 6% interest on it too.

As i said, "being ripped off"

This is another brochure fantasy that we need to extinguish

Oh ad if you find that something was promised in a prospectus, online or at an open day but it isn't delivered you can take your complaint to the CMA. They are certainly very interested in universities miss-selling the experience.

Probably only for 1st term of the 20-21 academic year - 12 weeks or so. The Summer Term of the 19-20 academic year is an examination & assessment term - there's generally (in the UK) very little large or small group teaching done. There is a lot of one to one tutorial teaching and marking, and advising via personal tutorials.

My comment was in relation to the cohort of students that my DD is in. Her final year.

Started in October 2019. Strikes before Christmas shortened that term. Returned mi January and had about four weeks before reading week and then more strict action which went straight into lockdown. So she has had, if I'm being generous 9 or 10 weeks tuition out of this entire final year. It doesn't make any difference to her what students in September 2020 get does it? Her degree will be over with by then. This whole year for her has been a shit show. To now be told that her degree classification will be based on her average marks from assessments done with only ten weeks tuition is an utter insult.

That's the perspective that I'm coming from

Parents need to parent. Our job is to educate.

Are you saying all MH issues are the product of (bad) parenting? Parents are fucked once a child is over 16 in terms of how much they can do for their child and how much the authorities will cooperate with them to keep the children safe. Drs won't divulge info without consent etc. Surely you know this in your line of work? You said yourself that you can't even confirm if a student is registered on a course to the parent.

I've noticed in this thread that students with MH issues are a real nuisance for some of you academics. But thanks for highlighting the care or lack thereof that parents with vulnerable DC can expect when they wave them off to uni.

Parental contribution is for living costs. This is completely separate from the tuition fees

What subject do you teach? Is it how to split hairs"?

It's the truth though. I don't agree with the finance system BTW

I would be interested in how many students would want to resit the final year. I can't believe it will be that many. However, in some subjects and some individual cases this could be a useful option.
Students should also make full use of the extension and Extenuating Circumstances procedures where possible.

Of course there are going to be issues, non of this is ideal. We are working our arses off trying to mitigate the problems as best we can. We honestly can't tell you what will happen next semester. Lots of us are terrified at the thought of being forced back into face to face teaching.

It's not for us to say whether or not you are being ripped off. You are not getting what you originally paid for so I would be pissed off too. Whether there is anything that you can do about it is not a question for academics and support staff but for the v v senior management and government.

There is a lot of one to one tutorial teaching and marking, and advising via personal tutorials.

Exactly. Which is currently non existent for my DD. Only lectures from last year available on line. Whoop de doo.

At the end of the day students are consumers. They are paying for a service that they aren't receiving. Why doesn't contract law apply here?

This isn't true. They're not consumers, they are (or should be) co-producers. If a university education was a product you could buy for yourself, we could 'do it to' the students without their engagement, participation, or effort. We cannot 'do the service for them' whether they're in the seminar room or on a laptop at home: they are participants, and that is why it's not the same as buying a washing machine, or a pair of shoes, or getting a cleaner in, or whatever.

Brass we aren't dismissive of MH issues....look it's clear you have a serious issue with academics but all this conjecture is ridiculous.

We aren't MH professionals and to act like one is unethical and bordering on dangerous. This is what our well being teams are there for....and they're all still working.
Our job is to educate and to signpost students who need additional support to the relevant services.
We can't be all things to all people.

I agreee heear hooves. My twins are in final term now of final year. One was just chatting about his dissertation. He has access to few books. He has just been given access (codes etc) by a school friend to a different university's library which may be helpful. He genuinely does not easily work from pdfs. It is really really hard for him. I have offered this morning even to print out 500 pages of anything he wants if that will help. He would normally go to the university library every day and work from books. It is very hard doing his work here without that. His tutor is trying to be helpful of course. He found one book he needs which costs £70. I have offered to pay for that if he can find it will be delivered very quickly which I suppose is unlikely.

I am sure he will do fine as he has had first and 2/1s since year 1 but I do hope there is some latitude over dissertations which are not gong to subject to the you will not get less than you have had all year rule either. Some of his friends have no internet at all at home of any kind - one friend has one house only and it ia a remote bit of Scotland (not a second home).

Thanks @heroku
I'm used to a bit of academic bashing but this thread has been disheartening to say the least.

It's not for us to say whether or not you are being ripped off

Ah but some academics on this thread have persistently done that by negating our DCs experiences and justifying poor delivery. Apparently we're mercenary to be concerned and in voicing how uni's have been handling things.

Students should also make full use of the extension and Extenuating Circumstances procedures where possible.

What is the point of an extension? Seriously? My DD has had no seminars, no 1-2-1 no study groups, no normal library access with full use of resources. She has taught herself since mid February. What good will extensions do her? It's not like they'll give her time to access the library or speak to tutors is it?

Honestly, I hope a lawyer somewhere is looking into this and students get a way to sue for damages because their losses are clearly more than just the fees paid out this year. Final year students have no way to make up the time lost this year. They have submitted essays, dissertations and will sit finals now, with this as the backdrop. Don't tell me that these students are not going to be adversely affected by what is going on.

TheMerrickBoy

But they have paid for s level of service - for access to lectures, to seminars, to feedback, to resources and facilities which they have not received. If none of this is important or even matters then what the hell is the point of universities or academic staff? If you can teach yourself via online resources then why do universities exist?

The 1-2-1s question/answer/feedback interaction can't be replaced with online videos

Which is why most of us are still offering these.....all my students have been offered 1:1 tutorials and have access to weekly drop in sessions which have been arranged at times to suit the students.

look it's clear you have a serious issue with academics

Only the shoddy ones 🤷

The tone of some posters re students with MH issues clearly demonstrates that they view them as a nuisance.

Extensions are helpful for any student who now has less time because, for example, they're at home helping with childcare for siblings if their parents are key workers., or if they're parents themselves. Or if they are finding it difficult to work at the same pace for all kinds of reasons. I can see they're less helpful if the issue is you can't get resources that won't be available in 3 weeks' time either.

It is desperately sad. I'm really sorry for all the students who didn't get the summer they deserved. We know that the context for submitting work is difficult and that's why every uni I know of has some form of safety net so that this term cannot bring a student's marks down (though they can still improve their average of course).

If you can teach yourself via online resources then why do universities exist?
Which is why most of us are doing remote delivery not just dumping content online.
I'm still delivering lectures, tutorials and seminars. Not to mention i'm adding audio to all documents and powerpoints I put online for those that miss sessions.

But they have paid for s level of service - for access to lectures, to seminars, to feedback, to resources and facilities which they have not received. If none of this is important or even matters then what the hell is the point of universities or academic staff? If you can teach yourself via online resources then why do universities exist?

@HearhoovesthinkzebrasWho do you think is preparing the online resources?

Brass you've not had a single nice thing to say about an academic on this thread despite many of us talking about how we go above and beyond.