Telegraph reporting primary schools to return 1 June

[MummaGiles]

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/05/02/primary-schools-reopen-june-part-blueprint-unlock-britain/

Sorry it’s behind a paywall.

Just heard about this on the radio. They are suggesting that Johnson will address the country next Sunday (10/5) with the roadmap, part of which will be primary schools returning on 1 June.

Not saying I believe it, just sharing the link.

@Keepdistance I totally agree with that.

And @hopefulhalf why would you be shocked people will lie? I am going to keep my family safe so my kids are not going back. That means I will lie that they are ill. If I was a vulnerable teacher I would lie to get signed off sick.

And learn to live with a deadly virus? No we will have a vaccine by the end of the year.

And we have a relatively older population of parents. Lots will be vulnerable. If you are young and healthy, your kids are and everyone you see is, then fine send them back if you want to, Although I would still be wary But if you, your kids or others you mix with are vulnerable, then why would you put them at risk? Personally I don't understand anyone who blindly does what the government tells them when it will put their own family at risk.

We can extraprolate from the hospital admissions and death rates ( as proportion of cases needing hospitilisation and fatality rate should be constant in the absence of an overwhelmed health system). Are some of you adovacating (primary)school closure until a vaccine is rolled out ?

Princess Charlotte has just turned 5 she was out delivering pasta, socially distancing, children in Denmark and China are back at school praticing social distancing. I can't believe it can't be taught, it's not rocket science but it will take time and class sizes will clearly need to be reduced.

I don’t think there are issues with behaviour in Danish or Chinese schools (for various reasons) equivalent to those in some UK schools. Many teacher students have mentioned the problems keeping small numbers of key worker children apart (not saying that’s the children being naughty, more the difficulty in communicating the message of SD even to small groups) and more disturbingly secondary teachers mentioning students deliberately coughing on people before school closed. I doubt Princess Charlotte is representative of the majority of 5 year olds in her day to day circumstances..

I predict it will be a more phased return, there'll be a lot of people who need to get back to work for obvious financial reasons and need their kids at school to be able to do it. But also many who can continue working from home. But then I guess those with kids at home may be worried about their child falling behind on their education .

Sorry cross post I see that you are. I think lying to your employer is nearly always a bad idea and lying to the school (with DCs complicit in that) - not great IMO. What is that teaching them ? Why not just be honest ? Or deregister them ?

But teachers are telling you they cant keep even the KW kchildren apart!
Kids want to play together or even not that they cant assess distance (or speed of cars) and just dont get personal space.
Chinese and some other countries children behave differently. Also I suspect many countries do not have the SEN kids in the classes.
If 1/30 kids has sen - they may be impulsive or need things done a certain way or keep having wee/poop accidents. Or lick things.

I haven't seen princess charlotte thing but i bet she wasnt just left to it.

Princess Charlotte dropping off a bag of pasta on someone’s doorstep as an argument that kids will be able to keep away from each other in the playground is an interesting argument.

No wait, I meant stupid.

So the solution is....
Because regardless of schools the country needs to go back to work. We can't irradicate the virus, we don't have a vaccine. These fundementals won't (i believe) have changed by September, except the NHS will have less capacity as winter pressures start, population vitamin D levels will fall and weather will be getting worse.

Are you suggesting keeping all under 12s under lock and key as "they can't be taught to socially distance" for months ? I am afraid I just can't accept the "it's impossible" line. 4 year olds used to knit socks for soilders (American civil war). 5 year olds walk themselves to school in Japan. Yes classes will need to be smaller, school days shorter. They sure won't learn to socially distance if they don't leave the house.

No
1 by sept more people will have caught it in a trickle so immunity will be higher
2 vaccination or treatments
3 vit d higher over the summer, takes a while to build up and some have started supplements
4 straight into another peak - great for nhs and another light lockdown
5 lets let all you who want to mix your kids do so over the summer etc and leave vulnerable kids/tachers/parents out of it.

I agree it's possible sept may look no different. But that isnt what many other countries seem to think.

Our gov look like a bunch of covidiots! We really do not need to look worse. We are likely to be banned from going to many other countries.
The gov already paying 60k to nhs staff families. So 100x60k.
Do we need to add in all the teachers families? Especially as unlike nhs their job can safely be done at home. And if say the teachers wanted the kids/teachers to wear masks?
Work out how many teens might die.
That is why other coubtries are trying to keep numbers so low as even for low individual risk it is still a lot over the whole population.
Those kids with Kawaski type illness - it causes permanent heart damage. Yes rare but if only 5% of uk population have had covid another 12x the number approx will have this issue.
Yes we can work out approx how many cases are out there in the uk. But there is the 5day incubation plus 10d to get seriously ill. And the first set infecting family and others.

But there will be more virus "out there". I think community immunity is a red herring except perhaps in red hot spots like Bergamo or NYC. Not going to make much difference for most of the UK .

Vitamin D levels may be high in September but will already be falling, whereas they are rising at the moment and June has the most hours of sunlight.

Sometimes I wonder why I bother posting here. My kids won't be going back. The only reason the government wants them back is to get people back to work. It has nothing to do with what is best for our kids or reducing deaths.

If you want to send your kids back and risk your family, go ahead. But mine are not going back. And yes I will lie about illnesses to enable that.

And this will mean effectively lock down is over. Makes no sense when we are continually told we are behind other countries but they are still in lock down.

I would also prefer my kids to see their grandparents and that can't happen if they go back to school.

@hopefulhalf I actually agree that children are capable of more, but that is not how kids are brought up in this country. I have seen abroad 6 year olds living on the street and caring for 4 year olds. No one would advocate that here,
And most 4 year olds in the UK cannot do up their own coats never mind knit socks. So comparison is not valid.

By the way when my kids were 5 they could have been helped to leave a bag of pasta on a door step.
I do wonder if you have actually spent any time with British kids?

Schools haven't even gone back in South Korea. I would like to know why they have taken that stance.

Coronavirus fears aside, I imagine their online teaching is more rigorous. Pupils in South Korea are more likely to catch up school work as well. The article in the link below may be exaggerated somewhat, but I can't see UK teachers (or pupils) signing up for this;

16 hour days, every other Saturday...
This is an interesting one as well;
"Teachers rotate schools every five years. It doesn’t matter if you love your school or not. After each five year term, the teachers, vice principal and principal undergo a lottery system and have to change schools.Thus, each year, a school may get new staff.This system is born to give each teacher an equal opportunity to work at good schools and bad."

grrrltraveler.com/10-facts-korean-school/

I can't understand why everyone wants to copy South Korea.

@cantory see this is where we always disagree - you have your risk assessment about your family and that is completely correct and right. I am also perfectly entitled to do a risk assessment and make decisions based on that.

You shouldnt have to lie about illnesses any schooling between June - September if it goes back should be optional (and I imagine they will want it) but you cannot and should not question the assessment others have done to send their children back as

(a) not being in the best interests of children and the family
(b) putting families at risk by making that decision

Other countries are coming out of lockdown slowly but surely. If the App works and testing and tracing is in place and R0 is below 1 lockdown is no longer needed.

Can we not agree that this should be a personal risk based decision for each family with each circumstances (and teachers as well) and not imply that those who are deciding against it are better

I want anitbody testing though as well to see how many people have had it as well.

What some posters seem to forget that most of us won't have a choice when schools reopen. Unless you have a stay at home parent, workplaces are not going to put up with young children at home longer term just because you don't want to send them.

Most of us will have to take the risk whether we like it or not.

Lots of PP saying they will individually risk assess their circumstances and come to the conclusion that for them and their family, they don't believe it to be 'safe enough' (I say 'say enough' deliberately - it will never be 'safe', as in, completely without risk - nothing ever is) for their kids to go back then. They then go on to accuse anyone who feels otherwise about their own personal circs to be 'blindly following the government' . Er, no. How come you are allowed to risk assess for your own family, and nobody else is? It's perfectly possible that other families do their own risk assessments and their conclusion is just the opposite to yours. This is the case in all areas of life right now including all areas of parenting, everyone has different attitudes to risk. One that I keep seeing on these boards for example is parents who smoke. That's creating a certain type of risk for you and your child (and that includes even if you only smoke outside - it's not coming from a place of judgement, but the fact that you only smoke outside does not remove a layer of added risk to yourself and your child!). It's not a risk I would take, but other families do. I don't have an opinion really on their attitude to risk and the risks they are willing to take, I let them get on with it. Risk assessment in light of coronavirus, within the law, is a similar thing. As long as your decisions are permitted by law, everyone is going to assess risk differently and none of that can really be derided as 'wrong' either way.

For us personally, DC is in the high risk group (previously named the 'vulnerable' group, i.e. not shielding). They are still attending nursery at the moment anyway and will continue to do so.

Cross post with @Quartz2208 ! Who put it more eloquently than me

I can’t believe it can't be taught, it's not rocket science but it will take time and class sizes will clearly need to be reduced.

What is your experience of teaching or being in a school during this?
I was in school last week. I was with children who have been in school for pretty much the whole shut down. I spent a good amount of the day telling them to stay apart. And those were the neuro typical children. One boy just simply did not have the cognitive ability to understand it. He just couldn’t do it.

Also remember that children coming back will have been at home with the members of their household. Chances are they haven’t been to a supermarket or such like. They will have had no practice at social distancing.

Anyone who has ever taught early years will tell you what a joke this would be. You spend half your day peeling children off you and the other half telling them to take whatever that is out of their mouths. And that’s before someone shits themselves, is sick, needs a cut attending to.

So go ahead and fail to believe that it can’t be taught but until you tell me your personal experience I’m going with what I have actually seen with my own eyes.
Even with NT year 5 - 6 children it is next to impossible. With younger children or children with any kind of learning difficulty it is impossible.

@ritzbiscuits I will be phoning in sick if I have to. I get a months paid sick leave. So will be able to see in infections have risen. Will get a sick note from the GP for stress and anxiety. Not difficult to fake at the moment.
I do know some parents will not have any choice, but others would be able to lie and be okay.

Of course other families can make their own risk assessment. But I do think if you have anyone vulnerable in your family you should be cautious. Vulnerable is anyone who needs a flu jab.

Because if you send your kids back to school I think you have to assume they will get it. If you are fine with that and fine with them passing it on to your family, then send them in. That is how I feel about colds. I am fine for my kids to get colds and pass them in. I know at school they will catch colds.

But if you have anyone in your family who is vulnerable, these are the people dying with underlying health conditions. We keep getting told that those who are hospitalised or die are overwhelmingly people with underlying health conditions such as diabetes, asthma, high blood pressure, obese, cardiac issues, etc. So no I don't understand anyone who has a vulnerable family member sending their kids back if they have a choice.

If all the teachers and other school staff go on strike (rightly concerned for their own safety) then schools won't be going back. You can't train up new teachers on mass overnight.

You're not just making an individual choice to risk yours and your child's life. Your choosing to risk other people's lives too. Other children, their families, teachers and other staff and their families.

We should look at what New York (another hard hit area) and other US states are doing. Their schools aren't returning until at least September. Look also at the European countries who tentatively tried reopening the schools (after stricter lockdowns and lower number of cases). Cases immediately rising. All of these countries are starting from a point of less cases and more hospital capacity than us.

What good does it do to return to schools (and other workplaces) for a few weeks before then having to shut again? Amidst huge increases in infections and likely deaths. How disruptive for the children (and the economy). Traumatic too.

We really don't need a repeat of the shortsighted approach taken in January and February.

I work with children every day, British children.