Boris Johnson and the precautionary ‘4 litres of oxygen’

[Lycidas]

In the NHS, the current threshold for being admitted to ICU is needing 15 litres of oxygen. Yet Boris Johnson was admitted and only given 4. Early signs from Germany are that giving oxygen and early admissions might help lower the death rate. Instead, we seem to be telling people to wait until they’re blue in the mouth, when they’ll need to risk the ventilator lottery.

Can we start discussing the Boris exception to treatment and if it’s feasible to roll out this ‘precautionary’ approach to the rest of the population?

The risk of loosing the PM during these extreme circumstance would have been a critical factor.
I, for one, am grateful they did all they could and that he did survive. We need some stability and continuity, there’s enough chaos as it is.

I'm no fan of Boris, but as our Prime Minister, he should get preferential medical treatment, in my view. It's about the office, not the man

I'm torn on this. I don't think your job role should mean you get treated differently by the NHS. It should be equal treatment for all, regardless. No one person is more important than anybody else.
On the other hand, he does pose a significant security and logistical issue to the hospital. I can see why moving him or admitting him in a hurry would cause issues in itself, as stated above. Moving beds around etc to create as much of a private space as possible (which I assume he would need, for his own enhanced privacy needs) in the middle of the night, especially in an ITU setting, would create havoc. That doesn't in itself mean that he got preferential medical treatment that nobody else would get if they needed it, though- just that more thought had to be given to the potential risks if he were to need a higher level of care earlier than it would for the average Joe Bloggs, though. So perhaps the thinking was to be a step ahead at every stage- i.e admit to hospital earlier than maybe they would for other people to avoid some of the practical/logistics issues?

Meant to add- last thing you would want from a security POV would be something like a high profile public figure coming into A+E. These things would have to be planned out to avoid risks as much as possible, so to be admitted to a pre-planned, locked down ward etc etc. Maybe that's why they seemed to be a step ahead at each stage.

I think debating about Boris getting special treatment is a red herring.

He got special treatment because it is important to keep him alive.

The “special treatment” isn’t even all that special, it’s fairly standard in a lot of countries.

But British culture doesn’t hold the value of people’s lives as equal.
Saving lives and decent healthcare isn’t something people are willing to pay for.
There’s a pervasive judgemental attitude (ref: pick any of the corona posts at random) that categorises the poor and vulnerable into the deserving/undeserving poor and a deeply entrenched reluctance to give anyone anything they haven’t worked for.
Paid work is the primary way of earning respect, to the extent that even the head of state, an old woman in her nineties is judged on her work output.

Expecting Boris or the Queen to put up with sub standard care is ridiculous, because treating anyone as if their life is expendable is abhorrent. Everyone should be able to access similar levels of healthcare. Everyone is equally important.

Civilisations are judged on how they treat their poorest citizens not their richest.

Namechanger - Would you be willing to pay for a better service, like they do in Germany? Genuine question

Agree Boris is total red herring.
And in any case -if the PM -any PM -even a useless one like Cameron or Brown - died, the consequences and outfall would be catastrophic.

@MarshaBradyo Yes - I did call 111 - both times. I cannot fault them either time.

I don’t see why it would have been catastrophic if BJ had died. It’s rubbish now not having a fully functioning PM. Would have been better to simply replace him.

I cannot understand why he should get preferential treatment. His life is worth no more than any other.

@mamamia456 - not me your question was directed to, but yes if I was that ill I would give all my money for the best treatment. Wouldn't you?

I am pretty shocked at how ill you have to be before you are admitted to hospital; especially now that the hospitals aren't full, so should be able to cope.

@Charley50 You don't have to be blue and not breathing before you are admitted to hospital though. Even if it's non-covid things (ok they are trying to speed up discharges and obviously don't want to increase risks) but hospitals are reviewing, treating and admitting people who don't need ITU.

Namechanger - Would you be willing to pay for a better service, like they do in Germany? Genuine question.
Yes, of course I would

I accept that our PM, like him or not, will get the best treatment. What I don't want to accept is the difficulty ordinary people are having in getting help and the late stage they are at when admitted to hospital
Perhaps if all our hospitals were at capacity there would be no choice but this is happening when there is plenty of capacity

It is a red herring. I don't care if Boris had a private room and all the caviar he could eat, and I really don't think anyone has said he should have been left to die!
But ordinary people ARE being left to die. It's not that they are not getting perks FFS, they are being denied treatment.
Their lives are equally important.
Although I can see that not everyone thinks all human lives are equal. Which is shocking.

X post Edwyn.

And where did the decision come from?
Who decided GPs could not do telephone consultations re covid and that all should be directed to 111?
And who decided that only late stage with blue lips, only able to speak a few words should be admitted?

MilkTray - Perhaps I didn't phrase it very well, but what I meant was would you be willing for a percentage of your wages to be paid towards health insurance, in addition to tax, which is what they do in Germany. I think it's around 14 per cent which I think is split between workers and their employers.

I put more then 4l of oxygen on my post-operative patients who are fit and healthy.... let alone someone who is apparently ill enough for ITU

Although I can see that not everyone thinks all human lives are equal. Which is shocking

Not really, they'll be Tory supporters.

Deciding not to treat earlier will be a Govt policy decision, not a local trust one.
They don't want the bad headlines that our media dished out to Italy and Spain with overflowing hospitals and people being treated in corridors, so don't let them in !! self isolate at home and Devil take the Hindmost.

So when your feeling full of pity for poor Johnson, just remember when you or a loved is seriously ill at home, that was his decision to deny you the life saving treatment he himself got.

No one should know exactly how much oxygen Boris had, except his medical team. And rightly so. Patient confidentiality and all that.
I wouldn't want people seeing my medical records, so why should we see his?
The papers might have 'heard' from a 'reliable source' that initially 4 metres of oxygen was given. Might be true, might not. Further oxygen might have been given, we don't know, we shouldn't know.
We don't know what he had over the course of his treatment, and that is rightly so.

@jasjas1973 unfortunately that is the conclusion i am starting to reach,

@SophieB100

Not if he getting privileged NHS treatment that he doesn't require, that's denying someone else who does need it... could be you, your children, your partner, parents.. then how would you feel?

Yep me too. I'd rather be treated in a corridor than die at home.
And 111 is a fucking joke. You have to get past a receptionist first who asks 20 irrelevant questions. If you are lucky a nurse will phone you back ( if the receptionist who has no medical training thinks he should) and the nurse will ask you 20 more pointless questions and then, when you are about to give up, he will ask if the patient is breathing...
At least that's my experience of it when my doctor stopped providing after hours care.
How can this system have been deemed fit for purpose??

I am worried that as the numbers we are given are only those tested and in hospital, many people could be dying suddenly at home, when they could have been saved by care earlier on in their illness.
I really feel we need to start admitting people sooner, and not leaving them struggle on at home. People can deteriorate very quickly with this virus it seems- what happens if you are alone, or even just sleeping alone as advised?

The issue is the triaging of patients with covid 19 symptoms as many others have said. You need to be breathless and turning blue, going by the questions I was asked by 111, to actually see a doctor. Never mind chest pain and being short of breath, never mind if it goes on for weeks - no-one wants to know.

I do not care what treatment BJ got. I care that many thousands of people are dying without even coming near a hospital and that many are dying because they are getting to hospital too late. At what point are questions going to be asked about the triaging protocol and treatment pathway?

We are in lockdown to prevent the NHS being overwhelmed as I understand it. But the whole 111 system seems designed to prevent people getting anywhere near a hospital until it is too late for many. These are surely not all people who would die anyway.