Surely this isn't true? Any London vets around?

[vivariumvivariumsvivaria]

A good, and previously sensible, friend of mine is a OT specialising in stroke rehab at a big London hospital.

She is now working 12 hour shifts in ITU under supervision of a specialist nurse. She's got PPE and the system seems to be working well.

However, staff are getting sick - and she told me there has been an appeal to vets and vet nurses to come and work in NHS.

Surely not?

I can't find any reports on it, and my friend is not prone to drama or delusions. I guess it makes sense in desperate times, but, the thought that times are that desperate makes me really quite scared.

Anyone heard of this?

This is definitely true

Not sure about vets but you will be surprised what dentist actually have to learn. In their training it isn't just to do with the mouth.
I know this from working along side many dentists.

I just went cold at the idea of a dentist being trained in cesarean. You can't be serious, PP?

Vets are more qualified than drs so I don’t think I would be particularly worried. However I think it is worrying that they would be needed.

Vets are used to going in up to their elbows

We have vets helping. They are supervised, but they are highly qualified, intelligent people who understand physiology and know how to operate a ventilator. This is actually a vast improvement on taking non-ICU-trained staff off of other wards. We need to be thinking outside of the box at the moment. I have no real concern about this, it actually makes a lot of sense. Their skill set is actually far more relevant than that of dentists, for example. (Not that dentists can’t help.)

Also yes dentists have broad medical knowledge. At my medical school the first two years of our curriculum was identical to the dentists'

Also why are people being so rude about vets? Saying they're private practitioners and will become moody bastards if they work in the nhs - this is highly insulting and vets are grossly underpaid for their level of skill.

We both go to university for the same period of time.

It takes more years to specialise in medicine typically but not always, it depends on your specialty eg it takes at least 9 years to become a consultant surgeon after graduating from med school.

@Chrisinthemorning I know some that have already had the letter.

Maybe, but you do know how they take their patients' temperatures, don't you?

Can’t be any worse than being treated in France

My issue about the vet medicine isn't how close animal medicine is to human - it's that things re so stretched that this is even being considered.

It's legal fora vet to treat a human, it's illegal for a Dr to treat an animal.

@RoryGilmoree

This is what is so wrong with Mumsnet. Specialists rarely come onto a thread but when they do it just shows up what a dangerous place this can otherwise be. I have read all sorts of harms on this site, some of the advice given in my own field (not medical) will have had profound negative effects had it been followed by some posters.

Thank you for coming on here with the voice of reason backed up with knowledge.

Ohohohwhereyougoing Sun 19-Apr-20 23:08:47
I just went cold at the idea of a dentist being trained in cesarean. You can't be serious, PP?
........
Think about Doc Holliday! Barbers used to do minor surgery and set bones in years gone by.

Seriously, dentists/oral surgeons would not be performing operations but are more than capable of treating patients in other respects, as are vets.

Here in Scotland, some of my dental colleagues have been redeployed. Roles include- working in a dispensary, supervising patients-checking respiratory rates, temperatures and making sure they keep their masks on. One dentist I know is accompanying a district nurse on home visits. Some dental nurses are cleaning wards.

They would never be placed in a job were it would be seriously out of their scope of practice, but they do have a lot of useful transferable skills.

For example, they are highly qualified and trained to manage medical emergencies, they have a knowledge of pharmacist/medications, they are probably one of the most experienced healthcare workers with regards to enhance PPE/decontamination and cross infection, having always worked/worn a level of this, that most doctors wouldn't be as familiar with.
They are good at suction. They have a specialist knowledge of the head and neck area ( albeit most wouldn't have experience at intubation), they have generally strong people skills, and a good chairside manner, they have been trained in psychological techniques, and have a working knowledge of pathology/medical microbiology.

I really don't know why this is surprising at all. Vets and Dentists as well as complimentary staff) have a wide training that will involve general physiology, pharmacy, a high level of manual dexterity, experience of infection control decontamination, use of PPE, patient observations and dealing with medical emergencies, high level communication skills and team working etc. They have been trained to observe patients closely and record data. The governing bodies and associations have been mapping transferable skills of their registrants in order to allow NHS England to develop a redeployment plan. Patient safety will always be of paramount importance and no one would want to work outside their level of competence.

This really isn't a case of show a dentist a Caesarian and then they'll do one, it's more of a case of looking at people's existing knowledge and skills set and considering how they could safely help the wider effort. I know of dental people who are fitting and training FFP3 masks in hospitals and clinics, packing PPE, helping district nurses to change dressings, helping cleaners to clean wards and testing staff for COVID. These are all helpful jobs well within their scope of practice.

This is an interesting link about dental staff helping in the nations effort and might help it people's minds at rest: www.dentistry.co.uk/2020/04/15/dentists-help-deliver-nhs-coronavirus/

Can’t get worked up about this, not after cabin crew were sent to the new hospital 🤷‍♀️

This is what is so wrong with Mumsnet. Specialists rarely come onto a thread but when they do it just shows up what a dangerous place this can otherwise be. I have read all sorts of harms on this site, some of the advice given in my own field (not medical) will have had profound negative effects had it been followed by some posters.

I wouldn't call it dangerous. It's just like a conversation in which you sometimes learn and sometimes people get things wrong. Also there are a few jokes being made, but people are forgetting to signal with

My sister in law is a dental nurse in a London hospital and has been redeployed to ICU. She’s working a HCA / runner type role.

FWIW 2nd year trainees regulary perform c- sections, it's not a terribly complicated or difficult operation. It is almost certainly to replace the junior doctors who have been redeployed.

So they are actually doing a FY2/ ST1 role which makes much more sense.

Chill guys. There's a lot of rubbish going round at the moment.

Except @RoryGilmoree a number of NHS trusts have already delivered bespoke training to vets as either 'physicians assistants' or 'respiratory assistants'. It categorically is not 'a load of rubbish' and vets are being hired in a number of different roles from NHS111 call handlers up to clinical/respiratory work on wards. It may not be happening in your trust but it certainly is happening elsewhere. the vet times article linked above is published in a professional publication and the reporting is accurate.

For pp expressing concerns about vets being coerced or called up - that is not the case. There has been a massive volunteer force of furloughed vets choosing to spend their time either as volunteers or in low-paid support roles to help the NHS. Many of these roles carry an increase risk of COVID19 exposure.

Something to think about next time you slander us as a profession of 'money-grabbing bastards' or similar...

A family member is working with covid patients. No prior nursing experience, an entry level physio who was given 10 minutes training and now working front line.

@Veterinari totally agree with you. I come from a family with a few doctors, all currently working front line. One of my family members is an ITU nurse in a central London hospital - she has ALREADY been assisted by a vet and she said the vet was far more helpful than another nurse she has assisting her on a different day who was redeployed from another part of the hospital. Vets know how to use ventilators and lets be honest, are far more practical and are used to improvising and thinking on their feet compared with a lot of doctors who are forced to work outside their field. The army have also been assisting as porters fo move beds etc and I hear they are super. Vets are not going to be left to deal unsupervised in an ITU role, they are there to ASSIST, as are dentists, but they are well appreciated and an excellent pair of hands.

Yep- we've redeployed dental trainees and dentists where I work - but they're working in a team, alongside junior doctors, medical students and senior doctors. Dental trainees and dentists can prescribe and work with doctors who know the body, but can't prescribe. It's all about teamwork and no-one working beyond their competences. Makes complete sense and I don't see why vets and vet nurses wouldn't also be redeployed to do the jobs they can do.