Government reportedly considering schools going back in 3 weeks

[FiveFootTwoEyesOfBlue]

On BBC News 24 now, article in tomorrow's Sunday Times says that ministers are considering schools going back in three weeks time. Plus allowing some shops and social gatherings, but not pubs and clubs.

There really is not enough evidence to be arguing children don’t spread this disease.

I agree with this - the evidence is at early stages including in the random population studies out of eg Iceland - too early in the epidemic to be sure a representative number would have been exposed in quite small samples.

Better understanding of the main route of infection in human bodies, as well as better population data on infection in children will be key. Until then it’s way too soon to say either that children don’t spread it very much, or that they are a high risk for spread.

@Hadenoughfornow There are two type of spreaders, normal spreaders and super spreaders. If WHO say kids are low spreaders of the virus and spread it less than a normal adult, and they have research to show that, then yes I will accept that.
I understand that the term super spreaders is a scientific term and that how the public uses it is different from the scientific term. Most individual kids will not scientifically be super spreaders. Super spreaders are people who come into contact with a lot of different people daily such as a post office worker or supermarket cashier. Schools though as an institution is a super spreader of the virus.
If the government had proper research to show that I could read, then yes I would accept that.
No one with even the most basic scientific background accepts statements such as kids are low spreaders of the virus without some evidence. There is zero research to show that.

Some schools were asking teachers to come in when the advice said no. Would that suddenly change? www.nasuwt.org.uk/article-listing/coronavirus-safety-failings.html

There is zero research to show that.

There is actually starting to be some, as mentioned - though it is absolutely at a very early stage. (And how deeply you want to go into it at primary source depends on the strength of your German!) But I know how you feel about lying and I’m sure you want to avoid it.

If you wanted to say ‘definitive evidence’ you’d definitely be on firmer ground, there is no definitive evidence around how this virus behaves in children full stop.

@Thisisitisit

You do know why people are not getting treatments?
It is because either there are not enough NHS staff or because the risk of catching covid 19 and dying is higher than delaying treatment and dying. My friend has had her cancer treatment delayed because she has been told by her consultant that if she catches covid 19 she will die, but delaying treatment only slightly reduces her chance of remission.
And sad though it is that a terminally ill boy can not go to McDonalds, I don't think that is worth letting thousands of other people dying for.

In the short term it might be ok to postpone cancer treatments for some patients, but that can’t be said for all. How long will it go on, weeks, months? The outcome won’t be good either way.

It’s those that say find a lump and are at the early stages of cancer that can’t be seen. Their immune system would probably cope if they got covid but if they don’t seem fast they would get sick from cancer.

Regarding the children with terminal illness, it’s not one boy though is it? There will be thousands of children that are terminally ill that are stuck in they’re last few months. The argument could be had that some that did if covid would have passed away anyway. They’ve had a nice long life.. the kids haven’t.

It’s an awful situation whatever

I think we all agree It is in children's best interests to be back at school, however we need to have an exit strategy that is guided by the science (which I do believe in) and the reality is there can be no social distancing at schools.

Therefore we have to accept that opening schools means the end of social distancing and need to be sure the risk is low. There is no current evidence that children are super spreaders no, and luckily they don't seem to be affected at all but we are asking staff and the families of those children who are being sent in to take risk whilst we are hearing daily reports of over 800 people dying each day.

I don't want any of my staff to go off sick as quite frankly we are fucked if that happens and won't be able to reopen but the decision to reopen needs to be done in conjunction with the scientists, the government and alongside the teacher unions too. If people are forced to go back to work when it is still deemed to be unsafe, we risk a staff member catching it and dying and potentially being sued.

@JassyRadlett

But you can say the early evidence is all pointing one way. That doesn't mean you bet everything on that fact. It is worthy of note that. And is a useful counter balance to some of the more hysterical commenters.

I don't understand people thinking September will be safer than June

I dont get this either. Yet so many people seem to think September will magically be safe. Why? I see alot of people fixated on this month and I dont get it- its just coming into winter flu season then. It would be the absolute worse time for a second wave!

I'm really worried about all my classes, especially the year 10 and 12. I worry about how much exam content they aren't learning properly no matter how well I prepare a lesson via video and email. I worry about the kids who haven't responded to any of the work I've set them? Are they or someone in their family ill? Are they being neglected/abused? Are they just having a holiday because they're not at school, so spending all their time playing video games? Is their mental health ok? I worry about all of that. I miss them terribly. Even the awkward, disruptive ones that I spend my life complaining about.

I also worry about going back to school as normal though. How would it affect them to come back to school and then pass the virus on to their grandma/grandad (quite a high proportion of the kids in my school have a grandparent living within the family home, or their parents are carers for grandparents and need to visit them several times a day). There is no physical way to maintain any form of social distancing in my school (I would be surprised if any school had the capacity for social distancing). One pupil with the virus could easily infect 20 teachers/support staff, all the pupils in every class they have (could be most of the yeargroup), and the kids who sit near them at lunchtime. And all of those families, many of whom have vulnerable or shielded people within that family unit.

I'm not saying I don't want to be back at school. I do. I really, really want to go back and do my job as normal (it's a lot easier teaching face to face than it is remotely). I just want us to be much further down the other side of the peak when we do reopen. In my area we seem to have just about reached the peak now, but haven't started coming back down yet. 3 weeks is far too early, but I would probably be happy with early June, as the number of cases would be significantly lower by then (hopefully). I am in the vulnerable but not shielded group, as are approximately 30% of our staff. That's concerning. We will obviously go in when schools reopen (I can't speak for other staff, but I will be there), but it is another thing to worry about.

@alloutoffucks So do you think all of the health workers should have gone off sick to protect themselves and their families? As you say, no job is worth doing for?

Fortunately in the NHS, although we are frightened and working outside our skill set, we are still trying to help people and not making excuses pr lying to get out of going to work.

Some disappointing attitudes, very negative.

Had enough- in my doc's school, lots of pupils and teachers got it. Most of the teachers are quite young - few over their 20s though. So not on the highest risk category.

A head teacher (so older) was one of the first deaths announced.

Had schools stayed open through the lockdown, I assume there would gave been more teacher deaths. Luckily most teachers have not been working and those at highest risk have been shielding.

TFL drivers are at greater risks than teachers as they literally come within half a metre of every single passenger on the buses so thousands and thousands of strangers, including people getting the bus to the hospital. Teachers mainly come into contact with smaller numbers of children who are less likely to come into school if sick or be sick in the first place and they are not required to come into as close contact with them.

Schools though as an institution is a super spreader of the virus.

Can you share your evidence base for this statement? It would probably change my own risk assessment.

11th May is Macron’s optimistic date for France. We are some weeks behind France.

I am a dinner lady in a primary school and when all the children do go back I would be concerned about lunch times. It's very busy, all the children queuing up you are in very close contact with many of them. I don't know how we could easily change our hot meals system though, it's all based on a canteen style service so if there were changes to accommodate social distancing it might make life very difficult for us to do our jobs in the short time we have available.

DC's school, not doc's school!!

@JassyRadlett I agree, we are at the very early stages of understanding this virus. We have only just learned that it looks like most infected people do not develop immunity.

We have only just learned that it looks like most infected people do not develop immunity

Can I have a link to this research?

It’s almost like NO ONE is aware of the DofE’s latest announcement. An online ‘super school’ and millions spent on IT to be delivered to certain children’s homes. Opening in 3 weeks, as if.

@MimiLaRue yes I agree with you which is why I've said we need to reopen in June if possible.

I think there will inevitably be a wave of new infections but hope the summer holidays and the children being off is a way to lower the curve which then means we don't go into flu season with the virus still in full force.

There are people, however, who want schools to stay open throughout the summer which I do not think is a good idea unless it continues for key worker and vulnerable pupils only.

@NotAnotherUserNumber
Well, that's two of us with some down-to-earth common sense, let's hope it spreads...

@Pomegranatepompom

Completely agree. I'm not quite sure why teachers lives are apparently more valuable than NHS workers....

@effingterrified There have been a fairly high number of deaths of bus drivers and minicab/uber drivers. In my city every bus I see going by has about 2-5 people on it, but we have still had bus drivers die. Terrible.

I’m a teacher. I won’t go back. Because I won’t be sending my own kids to school so I will have to stay home.
The NEU is vehemently opposed to opening schools. My school has a very active union who I think would encourage absence.
I will lie if I have to and say I have symptoms. I already know of 7 other teachers from my school who have said the same. We are London based and would all be travelling on tubes and buses. Nope. Not happening.

@Floatyboat

But you can say the early evidence is all pointing one way. That doesn't mean you bet everything on that fact. It is worthy of note that. And is a useful counter balance to some of the more hysterical commenters.

Yes, as I said in my post, far too early to rely on for definitive decision-making. But I thought it much more interesting in news terms than the reporting of the civil service options paper which (with my former hat on) sounds like a fairy classic example of an options paper - present two very unpalatable options with the one you actually want in the middle.