Socially distanced schooling in Denmark

[Orangeblossom78]

Return to school, in Denmark. Any thoughts, could we do this? edition.cnn.com/2020/04/17/europe/denmark-coronavirus-first-school-intl/index.html

I wouldn't have described Denmark as having beeb fully closed. Gatherings private and public of ten or more people are banned. However on the street where we live there have been two house parties, one seemingly a family birthday and the other a full on party. People were still out and about but because we are a sparsely populated country with few densely populated areas it has been easier to keep apart. But the populace seem to have taken the opening up of schools as some sort of bat signal. In town yesterday (first trip in months to get kids' underwear) it was heaving. Only one shop insisted on limiting numbers and had a queue outside - the rest had all the floor stickers and handwash out but there were more than ten customers and it was impossible to keep two metres apart. The government here have not had, in fact, enough cases (government source talking to husband who is involved in the logistics of specific industry response to virus). They have opted to open up slowly so that they can start to get more people who've had it. They have the capacity in the healthcare system (there are less than 500 people in hospital in the whole of Denmark with Covid19). However I don't know how they can control the rate of opening up when most shops are open and offering unbelievable discounts over this weekend and it's a customer free for all. But yes, the schools are doing a sterling job keeping kids apart and in hygienic teaching environment.

317 in hospital
87 in intensive care
76 on respirators

Denmark's figures from yesterday

We have a thousand students wedged into our school it's not going to work for us

DS' old scholl is like this too - 1200 pupils and probably only really room for 800 comfortably. But they don't need to open for 1200, they could just open for the year 10s to start with and then perhaps year 7s on a rota basis so only half in at a time.

Primary school parents understand part-time arrangements for starting reception so I am sure parents are intelligent enough to understand part-time arrangements for returning to school eg Mon/Wed/Fri one week and Tues/Thurs the next.

I thought UK (English) schools would go back after May half term but there is so much negativity and can't do attitude I'll be surprised if they even get back in September at this rate, especially with people saying they won't send their children back unless there's a vaccine - well, good luck with that, are you going to home-educate for years if there's no vaccine then?

If the Danes and Germans can do it, why not us? It's how the practical measures in schools work.

Denmark has had only 7242 cases and only 346 deaths

So about the same as Scotland then with a similar sized population. Well more deaths in Scotland but that's likely due to the unhealthier lifestyle. Population of Denmark is smaller than London alone so no point comparing their figures to the whole of the UK.

I don’t understand the mentality of Denmark and Germany can open their schools so should we

I’m really baffled that the general response isn’t lets see how that affects their infection and death rates and then make an informed decision

I teach sixth form only. Assuming upper sixth don’t go back which frees up some time and space I still have lower sixth classes of 18-26 so would need to be taught in at least two sessions to maintain distancing. Although they’re practical subjects and we work in groups so god knows how that would work! But for one of the subjects, I’m the only teacher. So that’s double the lessons at least for me taking me back up to a full timetable again. And I suppose expected to provide remote lessons for self-isolating students.

I’m with the poster up thread - they’ll just dump us all back in work without any measures at all. We don’t have the time, space or money to do any of it properly so I think they’ll just not bother. And that’s why teachers don’t want to go back - years of seeing things done on the cheap, too quickly, without enough preparation or resources and with us expected to make the best of it. Which you can, when it’s teaching a new exam spec or losing TA support. We’re not quite so good at managing global pandemics, unfortunately.

There's more in the=is in the news today. From the Times:

The work Gove is co-ordinating puts schoolchildren in the vanguard of a three-phase approach. Under the proposals, pupils will be taught in smaller classes of 15, rather than 30, to enable social distancing rules to be observed. They would be taught for part of the week or every other week. A source familiar with the plans said: “The priority will be for primary school pupils to return first.” Children in years 10 and 12, who are due to sit GCSEs and A-levels next year, are likely to take those exams two months later than usual, in July and August 2021, to help them make up for lost time.

No decision has been made but May 11 is the preferred option to reopen schools. If Johnson decides on a delay, they might open up during the July and August summer holidays.

Also, in another article:

Senior ministers have drawn up a three-phase plan to lift the coronavirus lockdown that would see schools reopen as early as May 11.

Under “traffic light” proposals to be presented to Boris Johnson when he returns to work, schools would reopen in three weeks’ time, with pupils of different age groups taught for only part of the week or every other week to aid social distancing.

The first pupils invited back would include primary school children and those in years 10 and 12 who are due to sit GCSEs and A-levels next year.

What about teachers unions, NUT? Would they not be asking for measures to support vulnerable teachers -such as students supporting for example as mentioned.

Orange

The NEU and other teaching unions are asking very sensible questions. This is the letter they have sent to govt:

To The Prime Minister: We, the undersigned, oppose any re-opening of schools before it is safe to do so.

As a matter of urgency and certainly well before any proposal to re-open schools is published, please can you share with teachers and parents:

Your modelling of the increased number of cases and mortalities amongst children, their parents, carers and extended families, and their teachers and support staff as a result of the re-opening of schools.

Whether such modelling is based on some notion that social distancing could be implemented in schools (we ask this because many teachers think this would be a foolhardy assumption)?

Would your modelling be based on concrete plans to have regular testing of children and staff, availability of appropriate PPE and enhanced levels of cleaning - with all of which we are currently experiencing severe difficulties?

Whether your modelling would include plans for children and staff in vulnerable health categories, or living with people in vulnerable health categories not to be in school or college?

Your latest evidence on which people are most vulnerable to permanent consequences or death from the virus, for example the evidence of the impact on those who live in crowded accommodation, those with different comorbidities, those from different ethnic groups and of different ages and both sexes.

Are you developing plans for extensive testing, contact tracing and quarantine in society as a whole?

Teachers see that countries successfully implementing such strategies have many fewer cases and many many fewer mortalities than we do in the UK. Would you intend these plans be in place well before schools are re-opened, which seems essential to us?

If you are not developing such plans what is your overall approach and is it dependent on an assumption that those who have had the virus are then immune?

Can you join me and take action? Click here: actionnetwork.org/forms/open-schools-when-it-is-safe?

Thanks!

Michael Carter

NEU District Secretary

That's good but they don't seem to be suggesting e.g. students supporting as happened with NHS

students supporting as happened with NHS

No - they are asking for the government planning around safety to be made transparent. We need to know what measures the govt are planning and how they are going to involve schools in this process.

When we know that, we can look at the details. How schools implement a return will necessarily very between settings, but we need to know the framework first.

If they are planning on keeping schools open all year then they will need extra staff - my DD is year 9 but in theory has 2 exams in year 10, I hope they give us dates if they are planning to open all year. I thought we were supposed to be teaching kids at home now not treating it as a holiday but looks like kids may have no breaks if you do that. I'm keeping on until we know otherwise but we've also got a summer holiday which obviously isn't happening this year but we may get a credit to move it to next year but no date can move it to. I'm hoping school won't make them sit GCSEs a year early next year but school can't plan with no information either. Though as year 8 and 9 mine look like they will be last to go back, I prefer that for mine but would be useful to have a clear plan. Or at least a draft plan subject to change.

Denmark never 'closed' as much as the UK. Gatherings of up to 10 are allowed, all shops are open apart from shopping malls, no limit to outside activities, schools were always open for certain groups of kids similar to the UK, the list goes on. If the danish 'lockdown' measures were applied in the uk it would be considered massive opening up. I'm pleased mostly that the health system has re started all services save elective surgery. Teachers (as far as I understand) are able to self identify as at risk and choose not to work and will continue to get gov corona virus help money - the same applies to private sector workers who are 'allowed' back to work tomorrow but don't feel they're ready. Ultimately so much is different to the UK that there is no meaningful comparison to be made. My kid have gone back to a halved class size (7 kids) and the lessons are all outside.

So about the same as Scotland then with a similar sized population. Well more deaths in Scotland but that's likely due to the unhealthier lifestyle.

According to Worldometer: death rate in Denmark per 1 million of population: 60. Death rate in UK per million of population: 228. And you really think that all down to Danes having healtheir lifestyles and nothing to do with the NHS being on its knees to the point that people (other than Boris Johnson) are not being admitted to hospital unless they hit the point where they are struggling to breathe at all? Yeah righ!

What is an acceptable level of risk in terms of lifting lockdown measures is totally dependent on how well a country has managed its COVID-19 outbreak in the first place. The Danish (and German) governments have clearly done way better than the UK government, so simply trying to apply their policies here without taking into account that they are starting from a different base makes no sense.

A lot of people on here don’t seem to understand how teaching in primary schools works. I spend most of my time right next to children discussing what they’ve done in their books and helping them to correct or continue their work. We don’t stand at the front and then sit at our desks twiddling our thumbs. It’s constant contact. When the kid in the middle says, ‘I’m stuck’, then am I really going to say ‘I can’t help you’?

Hope

It’s the same at secondary.

@Danetobe so if I've read your post correctly, the original class size was 14?
Also, out of interest, how does it work staffing wise if some people can't work due to needing to shield etc? Are extra staff brought in?
Denmark sounds like a great place to live.

Average class size in Denmark is much lower than in England.

What is happening with school buses in Denmark?

What is happening with school buses in Denmark?

I’d like to know this.

Also, is working being set for those children when they aren’t in?

Are parents happy with the arrangement? Is it enabling any to work? Are some children being ‘taught’ by TAs rather than teachers and are there any issues with parents over who ‘gets’ a teacher and who gets a TA? Are the teachers planning for every class?

How are the staff and children being tested?

Is attendance optional?

Are staff in the vulnerable’ group in work? I’m presuming the shielded ones aren’t? Or does Denmark have different vulnerable criteria?

What other schools in Europe have similar class/school sizes as England?

School buses in Denmark don't really exist. The students that take the bus use the normal bus services. Most students however live close enough to walk or bike to school (there is a great network of cycle paths). The bus services have been reduced and the buses are limited as to number of passengers that they take but most of the buses that have gone past me in the last couple of weeks have been empty so I reckon there is capacity for the odd child using the bus (as an aside, bus travel is free for children).

In my children's school the class sizes are between 18 and 22, and each class usually has a class teacher and a teaching assistant. Different teachers teach different subjects. The classes have been split in two and the subjects taught limited to Danish, English and Maths. The timetable has been made to allow the class to get the subject specialist in turn. It is working. There are no issues so far with who is taught by whom and standards seem to be being maintained.
If a child is not in school then no work has been set yet but as a mother of a kid with a cough I will be asking her class teacher to arrange work to be set for her. The schools using an electronic communication system and it is easy for communications to take place through this one system.

In our school one teacher who is pregnant will not be coming back this school year and will continue to be paid. Parents can elect to keep their children out of school if they deem it too risky. But from what I've seen, school is a heck of a lot more safer than the local high street and supermarket. When I've picked my child up they have been outside sat on mats on the grass so they know how far apart they
need to be. Each class is assigned a specific entrance into the school dependent on class location. All students have supervised handwashing at an outdoors set up washing station etc....
No testing for staff or students. General rule of thumb is that no child or adult with any of the symptoms should attend school until they have been symptom free for 48 hours. If a person in your household has confirmed COVID19 then you do not come into school and you self-isolate.

DS has an hour on a full school bus each way, not sure how that will work with social distancing if schools in England go back anytime soon

Schools, local authorities and teachers in denmark have a lot of autonomy so no two schools will be the same. I think schools must be smaller then in the UK (I've direct experience of UK schools though so can't say for sure) and pupils live close by. All the schools in denmark are on (I htink) the same communication system. The class size in my DC school varies from 6 to 19. My childs class has a couple of pupils who are not returning atm because a member of their house is high risk. I don't think school is compulsory atm. There are no teaching assistants at my DC school but there are 'pedagogs' (pronounced ped-a-go) who look after the children outside of school hours (8-2) and help out in school during the school day. In my children's school, work is being set via handouts left on the childrens peg in the dressing area, and we have been delivering back finished worksheets and various other bits every week or so.

I think that the parents are generally happy with the arrangement because of the exceptional circumstances. I don't think the teachers are planning every lesson, not at primary level anyway, but I would expect they are planning longer term or maybe doing CPD or similar. There is no precedence to this situation and I don't think people expect teachers to cope with changing the entire way they work overnight any better than any other member of the workforce. Teachers are well respected as a profession and trusted to deliver the best education for each child.

I'm not sure if vulnerable criteria is the same but I know that at risk staff don't have to go into the school.

Extra staff for schools and childcare settings are being recruited in my local authority. I think they expect the extra work including smaller groups and extra cleaning to last a long time.

Denmark has a reputation for being a great place to raise a child and I must say i think that is a fair characterisation. Some parents (I believe but I could be wrong) especially in the international community, don't think the schools push the children enough academically. I think the focus on academic achievement at my eldest childs age (8) is almost nil so probably a fair observation. They work each day hard on something and always danish maths and english but there is no pressure. The teachers say ' it's coming' if you ask about any specific academic skill. However they work on the 'pillars' - independence, self motivation and resilience a lot. I have only little children atm so my opinion might change as they get older, but I think that it works really well and national attainment at the end of school is as good as any other developed country. There are major downsides to danish society, enough to fill many books, but little children really have it made.

(also, academic attainment is not especially important for it's own sake because whatever job, bin man or doctor, nurse or architect, commands a salary that can be lived on with dignity)