Change to furlough for nursery workers!!

[Samcj02]

Anybody here work in childcare and has seen the revised furlough requirement by the government. They unturned on Friday evening.. anybody concerned about what they’ll now be receiving.. I, myself agreed to be furloughed under the impression the pay was 80%. I’ve added a link www.nurseryworld.co.uk/news/article/government-makes-u-turn-on-nurseries-access-to-furlough-cash

@Zogsbigsister I hope not as they just posted about the 100% / 10% extra on social media last night at 6pm so I assume that it’s in response to this news. It’s not outing so I can say that it is the Cooperative Childcare so it’s fair to say that the parent business will still be making a lot of money at the moment (the food shops... and sadly the funeral care divisions)

As others have said, this is only fair if the funding is adequate- which it isn’t.

Presumably they can choose to furlough and refuse the funding? Or furlough a % if staff not covered by funding? I’m just thinking that for DS, we pay to top up pre-school hours over and above funded hours...

Can nurseries claim funded hours if they’re closed? My sister’s nursery closed because no one was sending their kids in and the owner is saying she can’t get the funded hours money because the nursery isn’t open. So she can’t afford to furlough staff anymore and will have to lay them off.

@Morred I guess it might depend on local authority decisions, but our county council are still paying out to providers. Worth checking.

My understanding was that they're still getting funded hours for children who are still enrolled - some nurseries had a fair number unenroll before lockdown started, especially in the oldest year who will be starting school after summer.

Thanks everyone, it’s a real difficult time, I know someone who works in a very small setting and this has effected them in a massive way, they’re mainly government funded but are not at full capacity, the owner is of the understanding that she has to pay her staff out of The funding hours which is £4ph, and she can’t afford to pay the wages.. And may have to
All staff off, settings like This i feel sorry for, I know the owner personally she’s a lovely
Person and she’s devastated by this.. how awful x

I’m curious as to how the government will check who’s needed and who’s not?
The nursery my daughter attended closed, despite us still needing them more than ever (both front line NHS). They gave us one days notice, and basically said it wasn’t financially viable to stay open for 3/4 children, so I had to find a new nursery in one day, feel like the worst mother on the planet and palm my daughter off on strangers.

I had worked this out over the last few weeks, that if they continued to get funding and could still access funding they may actually be in profit......

It states they can access furlough if they weren’t needed to care from critical workers children, but they were, and chose not to.... will the government track those parents who’ve switched providers on the tax free childcare scheme and ask?

Nurseries are closing though, all the little ones in our town have gone.
The large ones will just about manage, but childcare workers are working at Tesco or delivering for Amazon now.

I don't think they can, realistically. Even if they could those who closed could argue that they weren't all needed.

I think there may be some who stayed open and will now be regretting that decision though. Some will have worked out that being open for a handful of kids would be loss making (they'd still have most overheads, most settings would need at least 3 staff in if not more) but that if they furloughed some then the funded amount would cover running at a loss for keyworkers.

Whether you could theoretically end up in profit would depend on the individual setting, the split between private and state funding and the split between staff costs and other overheads. Also depends on grant accessibility, many settings aren't able to access these.

I don't think the rule is wrong in theory but changing the goalposts is pretty bad.

I think it's awful that the goalposts have been moved like this.

I work in a nursery. Around 30 staff have been put on furlough with about 6 staff still working to care for key workers children. We are a private nursery but do care for lots of funded children. It's all very well saying that nurseries shouldn't receive funding AND the 80% furlough payments, on the surface of it that makes sense- but when funding is around £4 per hour it just doesn't add up. Wages aren't the only expense either, especially for nurseries still open for a handful of children.

I can imagine many nursery staff now being laid off. Long term this means nurseries closing permanently. So when people are finally allowed to go back to work, they can't as there's no childcare!

stardance i am in a very similar position to you, pretty sure my employer will have to lay people off now

I agree, it will lead to layoffs as the ongoing early years funding isn't contingent on number of staff being retained. For many settings they will work out that they need to reduce headcount so that the funding the do receive covers the ongoing overheads and the gap between government furlough payment and the amount they need to pay out. For many that maths will only work with fewer people on payroll.

Might also see nurseries asking staff to accept a lower furlough payment - whatever they can get from the government, maybe plus some sort of top up. I'm not sure how they would stop this.

Disgusting behaviour by the government to change the rules last minute and pull the rug out from under nurseries who were relying on the furlough scheme to pay wages. Many nursery workers will now be made redundant, and nurseries forced to close. It's tragic.

Please sign the petition

www.change.org/p/boris-johnson-80-furloughed-pay-for-all-childcare-workers-as-the-government-promised

The timing is ridiculous as well! Right before the portal for claiming goes online.

Signed the petition. Hope it makes a difference somehow. They cant expect parents to back to work eventually if there is no childcare or staff for their children to return to

I could be wrong but it sounds reasonable surely. If you work in a nursery where 50% of the income is funded places, and 50% of the income is private, you can opt to claim 80% furlough pay on the 50% private, and still claim 100% of the 50% that comes from funded children?

stardance

But surely the difference between what the funding provides (£/hr) is made up for in extra charged to non-funded parents, therefore even if private children are say 30% of the kids they represent more than 30% of the income and the furlough is payable on the higher percentage?

It's interesting how schools are seen as so pivotal to getting the economy going again, but childcare providers have been largely mugged off to the point that many will close, lots of childminders around here have already said that they don't be able to reopen as they have had to seek alternative employment. I am not sure how they think that those with babies will be able to return to work, especially if the guidance is going to be to try and protect the elderly and vulnerable for quite a while (taking away the option of grandparents helping out). I am on extended mat leave at the moment and my job isn't looking overly certain for when this is over, we had been having settling in sessions with a CM (I was due to start work the 1st of April), and we paid full fees for April as were promised this would keep her place open. She has now asked for half fees next month which we just can't do. Luckily DH is a key worker and in an okay paid job, but when my working life is so uncertain we can't justify it. I resent really having paid full fees last month on the premise that it would be all to keep the place open :(

The outrageous thing about it is that they took away what was promised in clear government guidance. Is that even legal?

Can you imagine the fallout if they had done this to schools and teachers? They wouldn’t have got away with it because the unions wouldn’t have allowed it.

Nurseries don’t have union representation and that’s the problem. It’s why the government get away with giving them a right load of shit over and over again.

What the industry needs to do is go on strike. Let’s face it - what is there to lose?

the guidance looks reasonable to me. it gives the example that if in normal times the nursery gets 40% of its income from government funded hours and 60% of its income from private parents fees, then it can claim 60% of salary costs - as it is already getting the other 40% paid for already as the government funding is obviously continuing. it wouldn't be reasonable for the business to have the hours funded twice! it shouldn't make any difference to staff who have been furloughed - they should receive their wages the same either way (or possibly a bit more as they should receive their salary in full for the money that comes from funded hours and 80% for the money that comes from parents paying bills)

I could be wrong but it sounds reasonable surely. If you work in a nursery where 50% of the income is funded places, and 50% of the income is private, you can opt to claim 80% furlough pay on the 50% private, and still claim 100% of the 50% that comes from funded children?

In theory, yes. But the reality can be somewhat different. Let's say staff costs are 60% of income normally, overheads say 30%+. Most nurseries aren't even working on that level of profit margin, but assuming overheads drop a bit if the nursery is closed and for simplicity sake. So, you need to still pay out 80% * 60% = 48% of your normal income in staff costs. Plus another 30% for the overheads =78% in total of your normal income.

You're going to receive 24% from furlough, and 50% from the council funding giving 74%. Now that's not huge as a % but it won't take long to run down the bank balance as nurseries tend to be pretty intensive cashflow wise, especially once you factor in payment in arrears from the councils (certainly the case here), waiting for furlough and so on.

Now imagine you decided to stay open for keyworkers. You have a tiny number of kids in (I know of settings operating with 3 or 4 kids)
You've still got your 30% overheads
You now need to keep 1/3 of the staff off furlough to cover the hours
You've got maybe 5% of your normal private income coming in

So now:
30% overheads
1/3*60% = 20% in staff costs
2/3x60%80% = 32% in staff costs

Now we're on 82% of normal income going out, and we've got 50% from council, 5% from private and 16% from furlough: 71% in, 82% out

Totally back of a fag packet and there will be examples that work the other way but it's not as straight forward as it maybe looks because decisions have been made on the basis of receiving both. If you were example 2 and you'd just been told this was the situation you'd be pulling the plug on keyworker care pronto.

And staff on furlough continue to accrue holiday entitlement, and the NI which can in theory be reclaimed is being offset against the employment allowance so it is also effectively increasing future costs. So it's not free for employers. Some will decide to reduce headcount to try to protect the business.

Admittedly I've assumed furloughed staff are at 80% in the example above. If it's expected to be full pay for the % of income derived from government then the figures would be even worse. Add on 6% of costs to the closed example, 4% to the open. If that's the case it makes redundancies even more likely.

Yes. As a result the nursery I use, as an NHS keyworker, has said they may have to close. Without childcare I will not be able to work. I can't work from home and have no family that could look after DC

statisticallychallenged

But the overheads are irrelevant surely - the government support isn't intended to help with that? The furlough funds are solely about wages.

I'm a childminder, staying open for key workers. Don't have many still attending though.

I've had an enquiry from a key worker desperate for child care as her daughter's nursery has shut. They are still charging her full fees though.

If nurseries are still claiming full fees from parents then I cannot see why they should accept further payment from the government to pay 80% to their furloughed staff. They should be paying staff out of their usual fees.

If they do claim the extra money from the government, then they are making a profit.

Most of us are really struggling (I am not charging my families any fees if they are not attending and I've lost 90% of my income due to small number of children still attending on only one or two days)

I really believe it's the greed of some of these nurseries that are in effect double claiming that has forced the government to make a U turn on this issue.

Some nurseries aren't charging anything, or just a small percentage. I agree that it's outrageous that some are charging full fees and claiming, there should be standard terms which would help parents know where they stand, and give some certainty to nurseries. To be honest as sadly a lot of people are likely to be made redundant in the coming months, demand for nurseries will probably fall anyway, exasperating the issue further.