Ethics of home delivery of non essentials.

[Snaleandthewhail]

Next isn’t delivering. Other major retailers have reduced their range and delayed their delivery times. But there’s a lot of stuff you can still order for home delivery.

If a company is trading and open and delivering, is it ethical to use its services to deliver non essential things which put more risk on to everyone involved in fulfilment and logistics?

I’m obviously not talking about food or medicines. Then there’s a whole range of consumables-but-not-essentials (paint and glue at the moment for my kids). But say - the new flat pack bed you’d been meaning to buy for your child growing out of their cot, or the set of saucepans you’d been saving up for. Stuff you would have bought, could still buy, but could wait six months...

Well yes, and the staff will be paying income tax on their wages, but that doesn’t excuse Amazon from paying their taxes.

I never said it did. The original point was that buying stuff puts tax in the governments coffers, that was followed by a suggestion tax wasn’t paid if you buy from Amazon. A false argument to make, just an excuse to swipe at Amazon.

The original point was that buying stuff puts tax in the governments coffers, that was followed by a suggestion tax wasn’t paid if you buy from Amazon.

Yes, but if you buy the same product from a different company that do pay their taxes then the government get even more money.
I can’t imagine Amazon are going to be crying into their cornflake because I ‘took a swipe’ at them.

I know people need different things at different times and what's essential to some isn't to others (I will have to order my own children birthday presents during lockdown) but please don't be fooled into thinking that using Royal Mail is any better than Amazon/other companies.

They have treated their workers despicably during this time, even worse than normal which is saying something. Providing no PPE, putting no social distancing measures in place, refusing to pay workers if they are off work, forcing them to deliver leaflets for shops that are actually closed, threatening them if they refuse to use their own vehicles without insurance, they haven't even acknowledged the fact that several delivery workers have died.

Please read this Twitter thread to see how much this company really values its workers, despite the virtuous image been sold to the public. The replies to any of their tweets or FB posts will tell you that this is a countrywide problem, which they have absolutely no intention of doing anything about.

twitter.com/davewardgs/status/1245392580155789312?s=21

I’ve bought loads of stuff, essentials, non essentials, gifts and for myself. Businesses are actually allowed to trade if they haven’t been closed down and their staff are allowed to go to work so I don’t see anything wrong with buying what they sell, they should of course be operating safely. The aim of the measures we have isn’t to stop everyone getting the virus, it’s to slow the rate of spread.

Quite a few shops are still trading online.

We use Amazon a couple times a week, mainly for supplies for dd (art supplies, a printer, puzzles, books), I do try and order in one order/delivery rather than ordering things every day. I have also ordered compost for the garden, have ordered seeds from eBay but now feel guilty after seeing how royally mail are working with no PPE.

I think it’s hard to say what is essential and what isn’t. For me the items I ordered where needed.

Both DD’s need clothes for the summer and we usually order from Next but can’t at the moment, they don’t have hardly any summer clothes and have grown since last year (teenagers), I will wait a few weeks and hope we can then go to a shop. I can see if you have young children then you may need to buy clothes as they grow pretty quickly but clothes for yourself might not be as essential.

I have been ordering things, because small businesses are going to really struggle if they aren't able to sell stock they've already got in, especially if its seasonal or stuff that won't keep. I also ordered some fabric because DD wanted me to teach her to use a sewing machine, and I ordered a birthday present for my Dad.

@DidoLamenting Thanks for the link to palava! I have just ordered a cardigan and some fabric.

Obviously employers need to protect their staff adequately and deliveries of essentials to vulnerable people need to be given priority. But assuming that happens, I think from an economic perspective spending is good if you can afford it. I've ordered a combination of essentials and nonessentials depending how drunk I was at the time

Yes, but if you buy the same product from a different company that do pay their taxes then the government get even more money

You couldn’t possibly know that. You only know about Amazon because it’s on trend to pick on them. Not buying from Amazon also impacts on small sellers who rely on them for business. You want to put some “noble” cause ahead of that, that’s up to you.

I can’t imagine Amazon are going to be crying into their cornflake because I ‘took a swipe’ at them.

They aren’t. Nor will it affect their business. The rest of us are just bored with it though.

Well, DH was glad to be able to order a car battery charger, today, as he was all set to drive to the office to pick up some equipment but his battery was dead.

I don't know what to do either. Have ordered a few bits but then I see people on here complaining about getting non-essentials delivered. I am lucky that I can work from home and am still being paid so I kind of think I should continue to shop as I would normally (not buying things for the sake of it) to keep putting as much money into the economy as possible. I have friends who are still working as normal but have asked for payment holidays on mortgages and loans, I wouldn't do that because I think you should pay if you can and that will help people who can't - not shopping related but I kind of see buying things the same way.

I've bought some stuff from Amazon and I have ordered from another company as it was the only way I could get a birthday present to a very close friend bur sort of regretting it now and don't think I will order anything else.

It's a complicated issue.
I do think it highlights the gap between companies who operate ethically all the time and those who don't. It's interesting to suddenly see people so concerned about it when actually especially fast fashion companies like ASOS are not great at it at any time. If you buy something cheap from a huge company, chances are the people involved in the production and distribution of those items have not been treated well or been paid a living wage at best of times, and the production has likely had a negative impact on the environment too due to manufacturing processes, use of excessive plastics etc.

Personally I'm ok with ordering stuff but BIL is a postman and isn't impressed with the parcels hes had to deliver. He feels it puts him at more risk and wishes people would only order what the really need as oppsed to cheering themselves up with a bit of unneeded retail therapy.

I’m buying as little as I can.., essentials like new clothes for kids they need, oil to mend broken front door handle...

I’m using small online stores to do it rather than amazon because I figure they work for themselves as opposed to being staff forced to work to pick and pack. My husband is being forced to go into his non essential office job and I just feel awkward forcing others to do the same.

I mean a handful of new clothes by that... literally because they had no warm weather stuff that fit. So a fifth of what I’d usually buy them for summer to make do for now.

How long do you put off buying for though? This virus isn’t going anywhere so it’s not like when lockdown ends the risk is gone so we can shop again. I also believe we need an economy and need to help businesses survive this so I am still spending.

I've just ordered a load of tools for DH, some are birthday presents, some he asked me get on Amazon for him because I have Prime. I've also ordered a few books and a game for DD and lots of other bits. Some stuff comes from Amazon, the other stuff from all over the country we live in (not UK).

We live in a smallish village, where only a few shops had to close as they are non-essential. I am buying everything I can in the shops that have remained open, but as we are not leaving the village, there is no way to get the tools, books and games we want/need.

Our Amazon drivers do contactless delivery on the doorstep. The postman likes to drop the stuff on the step, ring the bell and wait two metres down the path to chat for a few moments. I've seen him do this with some elderly people even when he drops the mail in the letterbox. He just wants to make sure everyone is ok.

How long do you put off buying for though? This virus isn’t going anywhere so it’s not like when lockdown ends the risk is gone so we can shop again. I also believe we need an economy and need to help businesses survive this so I am still spending.

It's made me think about how much I can improvising with what I have or repurpose items. I think we need to cut down on what we buy generally for environmental and financial reasons as a household and this forcing me to refocusing on doing that. That means I'm willing to spend more on the same item if the trade off involves local production / higher quality. Its making me waste less both in terms of food and other things.

I know not everyone can do all that, but I do think spending wisely may benefit the economy better (with less imports / off shore issues / production in places with better environmental regulations or ethos / better working conditions both legal and voluntary) is something that should be encouraged where possible to broaden the base of businesses available going forward and to produce an alternative to the multinationals and to show that dodgy practices are not the only way to be profitable. And that how much we buy is completely unnecessary.

We were headed that way in terms of our thinking but its definitely sped up the process and made us a lot more conscious of it.

We have decided we want to change how we live, eat, shop in a few ways thanks to the crisis.

I have to say that locking around at others I'm grateful for being someone who pays close attention to the news. It put us in a much better position to prepare in various ways from cutting spending on non essential things and sourcing alternative local suppliers we thought were better protected in a crisis. Its been eye opening over who has really been caught out and who is still completely oblivious to what's happening. It surprised me just how many parents genuinely thought lockdown would only be 3 weeks and then everything would be back to normal. They were stunned that the school were operating on the basis that they thought it was unlikely they would reopen fully before September.

I think that it won't harm a lot of people to get them to think more about how the world works, how things are interconnected and how they take 'getting stuff' for granted.

I know some people will just moan they can't shop at x and will merely wait until it reopens, but I think it is encouraging enough people to reassess their shopping habits long term to fundamentally change things.

I don't want to spend weekends endlessly and aimlessly window shopping and impulse buying for the sheer sake of it because I can't be bothered to do something else or to make a proper shopping list. I want to make use of the time I have in a much better and relaxed way.

No one who works in a warehouse can do social distancing. It’s impossible. If a company says they are, they’re lying.

I had to buy a pj fiends as he only has two, managed to rip the knee off one of them and is growing out of the other pair. As he lives in pjs at the moment, I need a spare to wash!

I haven't bought anything else. Dh has bought a kit to repair a leaking shower, some headphones as his broke and light bulbs. Oh and I think some memory for the pc.

That's it...

I’ve been also thinking about this. I wouldn’t use Amazon, big warehouse operations etc, but want to order a couple of things from Etsy individual sellers and small local independent shops. It’s more the delivery side of it that is concerning me. Seems a bit hypocritical to be staying safe at home yet expecting others to go out on my behalf. Interesting to hear pp saying BIL postal worker unimpressed with non-essential parcels and the poor treatment of staff by Royal Mail. What about other courier companies? Anyone working for one/know someone working for one? Are you/they glad to have the work or wish people would hold off buying for now?

That was my concern @Takemebackto98
It seemed to be a bit of a mix, as a lot of Hermes/Yodel/etc delivery people are self employed. So if they're deliveries stop they stop making any money. But they're relying on supplying their own protection (gloves, hand sanitizer, etc not readily supplied).

I find it so tricky to navigate. So many people on this thread and my previous one basically saying - well I need XYZ to do my garden, because I want it, etc. not taking any consideration of the implications of that on other people.

I do think that as a collective we do need to keep purchasing, but I also think this should be the time we start thinking about the bigger picture and bigger implications. Buy less - what you actually need, not just random stuff that will quickly end up in landfill. Buy local. Buy independent.

@Livingoffcoffee - exactly. I’d happily buy from local independents using a courier who is safe and happy to keep working - just the courier side of things is a bit questionable safety-wise.
I’ve bought a vegetable box and some vegetable plants from two local companies, both delivered by friends of the owners whose own work had dried up so pitching in to help their friends. Feel happy enough doing that as supporting local business.

I would love to buy local or independent and when some local farm shops opened (way before covid), we were the first ones buying.

However

1-We recognise that not everyone can afford it. Some of the items are way more expensive than supermarkets ans not everyone is fortunate to be able to afford it
2- thee are still a very small minority. There are no other local shops say for clothing etc and I was scammed twice when buying on random sites online so I am extra cautious now.