Would you rather be here or in Sweden?

[Forgetaboutme]

There's been a lot of talk about the way Sweden are handling the coronavirus situation. Schools still open, bars n clubs plus shops still open. The vulnerable being shielded and the rest social distancing or working from home where possible.

Would you rather be here on lockdown? Or in Sweden?

Do you feel safer on lockdown or if you lived somewhere like Sweden would you have been happy to live how they are at the moment?

Just bored here and wondering what people thought.

The numbers of "young and healthy" dying are miniscule when you look at the stats. And they turn out to be not so healthy either, the ones in newspapers have all been obese or later had quite a serious health condition discovered. Besides, young healthy people can die of any illness - it's rare but it happens.

www.loveinsweden.kokovoko.se

Neither, I’d rather be in New Zealand.

@BeijingBikini that’s right.

And the records of death are pretty much the same as they are every year, it seems.

Sweden. Without a shadow of a doubt. I think we’ll look back in 20 years and see this as a catastrophic error of policy.

I think we’ll look back in 20 years and see this as a catastrophic error of policy

Based on what evidence?

I agree @BeijingBikini quite often the young and healthy aren’t healthy at all.

Based on what evidence?

Oh, pure hunch - but I did say “I think”. I think the economic effects will be catastrophic and will lead to many more lives/life years being lost as a consequence than will be directly lost because of Covid 19. We run the risk of impairing the education and prospects of a generation of kids, who may not look back kindly at what was imposed on them. And - for all of that - we still won’t be able to stop the virus. If the area under “the curve” represents (crassly) the misery caused, we may find that flattening the curve just prolongs and eventually increases the total amount of suffering, as we won’t get the benefits of herd immunity. I sincerely hope I’m wrong, by the way.

Sweden. We have fucked up our economy for the next 10 years. If you extrapolate their population to the same scale as ours the death rates are the same, theirs slightly less I think. Iceland have also tested 1/10 of their population and found of those that did have it, 50% were asymptomatic. There is absolutely no point in hiding away in our homes for too much longer.

Are we not just prolonging the inevitable at great cost to the economy and all the other catastrophic effects this is having on people?

We missed our chance to contain this and now we are in a long lockdown because of our failure to act early.

Delatron - exactly! All those people coming back from ski resorts and not being quarantined.

We are delaying the inevitable, there will be a high number of deaths whatever we do, but over a longer period.

Missing the contain period entirely was unforgivable.

NZ's lockdown could be indefinite. I don't see a feasible exit strategy there and think they will eventually have to simply allow the virus to circulate in a country now even poorer and sicker (lack of exercise and Vit D as well as profuse drinking during lockdown) due to extended lockdown.

I don't see how the lockdown could be indefinite, but we won't find out until the 20th. I imagine that at some stage we will go down a level, but there is no point in speculating. Lack of exercise? There are plenty of people walking and cycling here, and I know others are doing exercises and sporty things at home. Vit D? It's autumn, it's sunny - even in winter we usually get a lot of sunshine - and most NZers have gardens or outdoor areas. As to profuse drinking, I'm sure that is happening but everyone I know is drinking no more than usual. Where do you live - you paint a pretty bleak view of life in NZ!

"Just like the Western world, which can afford a (short) lockdown and get benefit from it, whereas in poorer countries a lockdown is utter shambles"

I agree that if I lived in a developing country I probably wouldn't want any measures at all

• because it would kill millions through starvation anyway

However, the UK is not a developing country

Just like for individuals, a country that is wealthy has more choices

eaglejulesk

Here you go lovely. Vitamin D deficiency in prelockdown NZ. The issue is that as the lockdown progresses into winter, and for vitamin D purposes that is May, it will be harder and harder to get enough Vitamin D with daily exercise. This will disproportionately affect those with darker skin as they need more sun exposure to make sufficient Vitamin D.

www.health.govt.nz/your-health/healthy-living/food-activity-and-sleep/healthy-eating/vitamin-d

Re: drinking. That's the perpetual problem in NZ, however the information I'm hearing back is that lockdown has worsened the issue with greater associated social problems. Heavy drinking of course makes a person more susceptible to severe illness.

www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2018/06/new-zealand-reaches-crisis-point-with-drinking.html

i.stuff.co.nz/national/9331572/One-in-10-Kiwis-now-alcoholic

It isn't so much a bleak picture as a sad, realistic one. Either you get the virus, or you remain in your "bubbles" for an indefinite period. I have no idea how NZ will afford this lockdown, let alone a much longer one.

Jacinda Ardern has some very difficult choices to make and I'm just beyond glad I'm not in her shoes.

Pics do you think the aim is to stamp it out in NZ then make visitors isolate on entry? Or us that not doable, idk but find it interesting.

@PicsInRed

Most of the population of NZ does not have darker skin (not as dark as mentioned in the health dept blurb). May is still warm and sunny generally, and as I said previously even in winter we get a lot of sunshine - far more than in the UK. I have never in my whole life heard of anyone with a deficiency of Vit D. I am going outside as much as pre-lockdown anyway, so I really don't understand what you are getting at??? The link you provided actually says "For most people, it’s easy to get enough vitamin D in New Zealand"

As for drinking - I don't believe we drink any more than other countries. As I said, no-one I know is drinking any more than usual, and they certainly aren't alcoholics.

I did ask where you live - if you live in NZ then you obviously live in a very different part to where I do, if you don't then you really have no idea what you are talking about! No-one ever said we were going to be in lockdown forever.

I don't think people in the UK realise how sure our situation is or how catastrophically it's being handled. There are few places that anyone with a brain would want to be right now but the UK is definitely not among them.

Sweden have a different population density and are at a different point on the curve. Speculation about how it's going to go for them is pretty pointless.

Most of the population of NZ does not have darker skin (not as dark as mentioned in the health dept blurb).

Still, a statistically significant proportion do and every person matters.

NZ has an acknowledged alcohol problem, per links.

Vit D difficult to get May to September, per link. There would be further difficulty in event of lockdown.

You shouldn't be going out the same amount if you are truly locked down. Unless you mean in your own private garden - many Kiwis in the big cities don't have their own private garden, living in apartments, student accommodation, small townhouses or Housing NZ accommodation with communal front yards. Once a day exercise will be it for them.

I'm not giving personal details on a public messge board. I'm Kiwi, that will have to do.

Picsdo you think the aim is to stamp it out in NZ then make visitors isolate on entry? Or us that not doable, idk but find it interesting.

I think they hope for a vaccine as they don't believe that the health system and economy could cope. That does mean stamp it out and isolate visitors on entry.

The difficulty is that there will be reseeding if lockdown lifts (e.g. private sailors and incidental transmission by international cargo staff and passengers).

This strategy will be triumphant if a highly effective vaccine can be developed and distributed exceptionally quickly. If not, difficult decisions will need to be made - and we'll probably then see lockdown lifted and herd immunity quietly pursued.

Iceland have also tested 1/10 of their population and found of those that did have it, 50% were asymptomatic.

Hi, I'm correcting this where I see it. Seems some journalists have misinterpreted. This statistic refers to 50% of cases identified by deCODE genetics, a private biomedical research company. The other 50% apparently had mild cold symptoms. There are two parallel testing programmes in Iceland. The healthcare system tests suspected cases, i.e. people with likely symptoms. DeCODE tests volunteers from the general population who by definition are not seriously ill. If you are ill you are supposed to be in quarantine and are not allowed to go to deCODE. So you should understand this '50%' in this context. It does not mean 50% of all identified cases, or even close because for obvious reasons the healthcare system is identifying a lot more cases than deCODE.

I wouldn't rather be anywhere else than Iceland and am so happy with the response here. If I had to choose between Sweden and the UK I'd take Sweden. They seem to be reacting calmly and I think the UK has slightly tipped the balance too far towards severe restrictions. Perhaps Sweden is a bit too far the other way, which is why I prefer Iceland who have got the balance between infection control and freedom / keeping society functioning about right in my opinion. Although I think an economic downturn is inevitable due to the damage to the tourism industry - this was unavoidable I suppose.

@PuffinShop. Interesting the hear the Icelandic response, since I was supposed to be in Iceland this week. Maybe next year, I’ve only been planning this trip for 25 years and saving for 5.... another year it 2 won’t hurt.

My children can still go to school (every other day to allow for smaller groups), we can go outside and do whatever we like as long as we stay 2 metres apart from each other (including recklessly sitting down, or eating a sandwich, or going on the swings), most shops are open if you don't have more than 20 people inside at once, no panic buying or stockpiling, nobody snitching on their neighbours, police not hassling people going about their normal business, response is led by experts not politicians. And even though we have much more freedom and are being treated like adults rather than naughty children, we got over the peak quicker than predicted thanks to widespread testing and contact tracing.

I do feel really sorry for family and friends in the UK. Someone called the police on my dad the other day for walking his dog in the wood a mile from his house.

Time will tell which strategy is most successful long term and we don't know how it will go when restrictions are lifted, but yeah at the moment I'm really glad to be here.

Sweden - my cats are there without me as flights stopped and I miss them :(

Puffin “ Someone called the police on my dad the other day for walking his dog in the wood a mile from his house”

Please tell me the police didn’t respond to that?